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Dr. Rhonda Patrick: Micronutrients for Health & Longevity | Huberman Lab Podcast #70



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Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,
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where we discuss science and science-based tools
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for everyday life.
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I'm Andrew Huberman,
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and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology
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at Stanford School of Medicine.
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Today, my guest is Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
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Dr. Patrick is known to some of you as a podcaster
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and one of the premier educators in the landscape
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of mitochondria, metabolism, stress,
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and other aspects of brain and body health.
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Her podcast, Found My Fitness,
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is one of the premier podcasts in the world
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for disseminating knowledge about how the brain
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and body work and how we can use behavioral tools,
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micronutrients, supplements, and other protocols
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in order to maximize our immediate and long-term health.
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Dr. Patrick did her formal training in cell biology,
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exploring the links between mitochondrial metabolism,
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apoptosis, which is naturally occurring cell death,
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which is a healthy form of cell death
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that occurs in our brain and body throughout the lifespan,
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and cancer biology.
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She then went on to do postdoctoral training
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with Dr. Bruce Ames investigating the effects
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of micronutrients, meaning vitamins and minerals,
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and how they affect metabolism, inflammation,
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DNA damage, and the aging process.
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She has published landmark review articles
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and primary research, meaning original research articles,
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in some of the premier journals in the world,
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including Science, Nature Cell Biology,
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Trends in Cell Biology, and FASEB.
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Indeed, Dr. Patrick is an expert
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in an extraordinarily broad range of topics
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that impact our health.
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For today's episode,
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we focus primarily on the major categories
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of micronutrients that are essential
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for brain and body health.
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I have to confess that before the discussion
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with Dr. Patrick, I was aware of only one of the categories
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of micronutrients that we discuss.
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And so you'll notice that I am wrapped with attention
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throughout the discussion.
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And I think that you'll want to have a pen and paper handy
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because she offers not only a very clear understanding
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of the biological mechanisms
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by which other micronutrients operate,
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but some very clear and actionable tools
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and items that we can all embark on
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if we are to optimize our brain and body health.
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We also discuss behavioral protocols.
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Dr. Patrick is well-known for her understanding
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of the scientific literature on sauna
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and the use of heat and cold for optimizing things
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like metabolism, longevity, cardiovascular health.
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And I'm delighted to say that we discussed that as well
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and how behavioral protocols can interface
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with supplement-based and nutritional protocols.
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I'm confident that you'll learn a tremendous amount
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of information from Dr. Patrick,
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much of which is immediately actionable.
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And if you're not already following and listening
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to her excellent podcast, you'll absolutely want to do that.
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It's foundmyfitness.com is the website
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where you can get access to that podcast.
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It's also on Apple and Spotify and YouTube
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as foundmyfitness.
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Dr. Patrick also has a terrific newsletter
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that I recommend signing up for.
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It's foundmyfitness.com slash newsletter
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is where you'll find it.
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And it includes research on fasting, micronutrients,
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sleep, depression, fitness, longevity, and far more,
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along of course with actionable protocols.
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I'm pleased to announce that the Huberman Lab Podcast
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is now partnered with Momentous Supplements.
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Our motivation for partnering with Momentous
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is to provide people one location where they can go
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to access the highest quality supplements
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in the specific dosages that are best supported
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by the scientific research and that are discussed
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during various episodes of the Huberman Lab Podcast.
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If you go to livemomentous.com slash Huberman,
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you will see those formulations.
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I should mention that we are going to add more formulations
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in the months to come,
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and you will see specific suggestions
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about how best to take those supplements,
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meaning what dosages and times of day,
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and in fact, how to combine those supplements
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with specific behavioral protocols
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that have been discussed on the podcast
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and are science supported in order to derive
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the maximum benefit from those supplements.
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And many of you will probably also be pleased to learn
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that Momentous ships not just within the United States,
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but also internationally.
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So once again, if you go to livemomentous.com slash Huberman,
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you will find what we firmly believe
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to be the best quality supplements in the precise dosages
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and the best protocols for taking those supplements,
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along with the ideal behavioral protocols
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to combine with those supplement formulations.
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I'm pleased to announce
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that I'm hosting two live events this May.
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The first live event will be hosted
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in Seattle, Washington on May 17th.
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The second live event will be hosted
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in Portland, Oregon on May 18th.
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Both are part of a lecture series entitled
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The Brain-Body Contract,
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during which I will discuss science and science-based tools
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for mental health, physical health, and performance.
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And I should point out
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that while some of the material I'll cover
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will overlap with information covered here
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on the Huberman Lab Podcast
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and on various social media posts,
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most of the information I will cover
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is going to be distinct from information
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covered on the podcast or elsewhere.
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So once again, it's Seattle on May 17th,
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Portland on May 18th.
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You can access tickets by going to HubermanLab.com slash tour
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and I hope to see you there.
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Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast
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is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
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It is, however, part of my desire and effort
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to bring zero cost to consumer information about science
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and science-related tools to the general public.
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In keeping with that theme,
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I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
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Our first sponsor is Athletic Greens.
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Athletic Greens is an all-in-one
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vitamin mineral probiotic drink.
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I've been taking Athletic Greens since 2012,
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so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.
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The reason I started taking Athletic Greens
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and the reason I still take Athletic Greens
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once or twice a day is that it helps me cover
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all of my basic nutritional needs.
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It makes up for any deficiencies that I might have.
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In addition, it has probiotics,
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which are vital for microbiome health.
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I've done a couple of episodes now
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on the so-called gut microbiome
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and the ways in which the microbiome interacts
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with your immune system, with your brain to regulate mood,
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and essentially with every biological system
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relevant to health throughout your brain and body.
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With Athletic Greens, I get the vitamins I need,
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the minerals I need,
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and the probiotics to support my microbiome.
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If you'd like to try Athletic Greens,
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you can go to athleticgreens.com slash Huberman
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and claim a special offer.
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They'll give you five free travel packs,
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which make it easy to mix up Athletic Greens
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while you're on the road,
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plus a year's supply of vitamin D3K2.
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There are a ton of data now showing that vitamin D3
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is essential for various aspects of our brain
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and body health.
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Even if we're getting a lot of sunshine,
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many of us are still deficient in vitamin D3.
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And K2 is also important because it regulates things
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like cardiovascular function,
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calcium in the body, and so on.
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Again, go to athleticgreens.com slash Huberman
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to claim the special offer of the five free travel packs
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and the year supply of vitamin D3K2.
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00:06:52.740
Today's episode is also brought to us by Thesis.
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Thesis makes what are called nootropics,
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which means smart drugs.
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Now, to be honest, I am not a fan of the term nootropics.
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I don't believe in smart drugs in the sense that
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I don't believe that there's any one substance
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that's just going to make us smarter all around
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If you're an artist, you're a musician, you're doing math,
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you're doing accounting, at different part of the day,
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They give you the ability to try several different blends
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Today's episode is also brought to us by Inside Tracker.
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Inside Tracker is a personalized nutrition platform
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I've long been a believer in getting regular blood work done
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for the simple reason that many of the factors
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What's unique about Inside Tracker is that
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while there are a lot of different tests out there
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with Inside Tracker, you get the numbers back
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Just use the code Huberman at checkout.
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And now for my discussion with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
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Rhonda, welcome.
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This has been a long time coming,
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even longer than you know,
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because even before we discussed you coming
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on this podcast as a guest,
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I've been watching your content for a very long time.
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So I want to start off by saying thank you.
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You were the spearhead to break through
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from academic science to public education.
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So I consider you first in,
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and the rest of us are just in your wake.
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So thank you for that.
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That's been-
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Oh, that is so kind.
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Thank you.
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Thank you so much.
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It's absolutely true.
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I am so excited to be here having a conversation with you.
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Thank you.
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It's absolutely true.
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If anyone does their research,
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they will realize that the statement I just made
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is absolutely true.
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And there isn't even a close second, you know,
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any other public facing educators
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that have formal science training
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and do regular posting of content came in several years
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after you initiated it.
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So we're all grateful.
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I have so many questions,
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but I want to start off with a kind of a new,
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but old theme that you're very familiar with.
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So temperature is a powerful stimulus,
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as we know for biology.
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And you've covered a lot of material related
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to the utility of cold,
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but also the utility of heat.
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And as I learn more and more from your content
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and from the various papers,
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it seems that there's a bit of a conundrum
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in that cold can stimulate a number of things
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like increases in metabolism, brown fat,
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et cetera, et cetera.
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Hopefully you'll tell us more about those,
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but heat seems to be able to do a lot of the same things.
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And I wonder whether or not the discomfort of cold,
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deliberate cold exposure and the discomfort of heat
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might be anchoring to the same pathway.
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So would you mind sharing with us a little bit
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about what happens when we get into a cold environment
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on purpose and what happens when we get
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into a hot environment on purpose?
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And I'm hoping that this might eventually lead us
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to some point of convergent understanding.
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So if you would.
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I would love to, let's take a step back.
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And I think you brought up a really important point here.
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And I think that point has to do
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with the intermittent challenging of yourself
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and whether that is through temperature changes
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like cold or heat or through other types of stressors
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like physical activity or perhaps even dietary compounds
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that are bound in plants.
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These are things like polyphenols or flavanols.
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Humans, we evolved to intermittently challenge ourselves.
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And before we had Instacart where you could basically
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just get your food delivered to you,
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before the industrial revolution occurred,
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we were out hunting, and I say we, not us, but humans.
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We were out gathering, we were moving,
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and we had to be physically fit.
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You couldn't catch your prey
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if you were a sedentary slob, right?
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We're moving and you had to pick your berries,
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you had to move.
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And so physical activity was a part of everyday life.
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And caloric restriction or intermittent fasting
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was also a part of it.
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This is another type of challenge.
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We didn't always have a prey that we caught
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or maybe temperatures were such that
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there was nothing for us to gather, right?
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So food scarcity was something common
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as well as eating plants.
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So getting these compounds that I mentioned.
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So these are all types of stress, intermittent challenges
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that activate genetic pathways in our bodies.
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These are often referred to in science
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as stress response pathways
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because they respond to a little bit of stress.
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Physical activity is strenuous.
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Fasting is a little bit stressful.
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Heat, cold, these things are all types
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of little intermittent challenges.
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00:13:30.620
And there is a lot of crosstalk between these stressors
link |
00:13:36.000
and the genetic pathways that they activate.
link |
00:13:38.680
And these genetic pathways that are activated
link |
00:13:41.120
help you deal with stress.
link |
00:13:42.640
And they do it in a way that is not only beneficial
link |
00:13:46.840
to help you deal with that little stressor,
link |
00:13:48.960
exercise or heat, it stays active
link |
00:13:51.960
and it helps you deal with the stress
link |
00:13:53.580
of normal metabolism, normal immune function happening,
link |
00:13:57.040
just life, aging, right?
link |
00:13:58.680
So this concept is referred to as hormesis, right?
link |
00:14:01.440
This is a little bit of stressful challenge
link |
00:14:04.800
that activates these stress response pathways
link |
00:14:06.840
in a beneficial way that is a net positive
link |
00:14:09.120
that actually has a very profound antioxidant,
link |
00:14:13.200
anti-inflammatory response or whatever the response is.
link |
00:14:16.660
It could be the production of more stem cells.
link |
00:14:19.200
These are cells that help regenerate different cells
link |
00:14:21.940
within tissues or something like autophagy,
link |
00:14:24.560
which is a process that can clear away
link |
00:14:26.480
all the gunk inside of our cells,
link |
00:14:28.320
pieces of DNA, protein aggregates.
link |
00:14:30.760
So you'll find that these stress response pathways
link |
00:14:34.480
are activated by a variety of stressors.
link |
00:14:37.960
So for example, one pathway is called heat shock proteins.
link |
00:14:41.280
And as their name would apply, one would go,
link |
00:14:42.960
oh, they're activated by heat.
link |
00:14:44.760
Well, correct, they are activated very robustly by heat.
link |
00:14:47.440
And we can talk about that.
link |
00:14:48.300
But you can eat a plant like broccoli sprouts,
link |
00:14:53.080
which is high in something called sulforaphane.
link |
00:14:55.000
This is a compound that is sort of like a hormetic compound
link |
00:14:58.840
or as David Sinclair likes to say,
link |
00:15:00.160
it's a xenohormetic compound.
link |
00:15:02.040
I love that, I love that term.
link |
00:15:04.720
And it activates heat shock proteins, among other things.
link |
00:15:07.760
It also activates a very powerful detoxification pathway
link |
00:15:10.880
called NRF2, which helps you detoxify things
link |
00:15:14.280
like carcinogens that you're exposed to.
link |
00:15:15.840
Well, guess what?
link |
00:15:16.680
Heat activates that.
link |
00:15:17.760
So what I'm getting at is there is overlap.
link |
00:15:20.360
Like cold also activates heat shock proteins.
link |
00:15:23.040
You're like, really, cold?
link |
00:15:24.040
Yes, it activates.
link |
00:15:25.320
These are stress response pathways
link |
00:15:27.720
and they are activated by various types of stressors.
link |
00:15:30.620
Now, you're gonna more robustly activate heat shock proteins
link |
00:15:34.360
from heat versus cold, but there is some overlap.
link |
00:15:39.320
So I think that sort of forms a foundation there.
link |
00:15:42.920
Yeah, that's very helpful.
link |
00:15:44.400
And it brings to mind in the context of the nervous system,
link |
00:15:47.760
I always tell people, you only have a small kit
link |
00:15:51.080
of neurochemicals to work with.
link |
00:15:52.840
There isn't dopamine for Netflix
link |
00:15:55.800
and then dopamine for relationship
link |
00:15:57.260
and dopamine for work, et cetera.
link |
00:15:59.640
Dopamine is a generic pathway by which motivation,
link |
00:16:02.600
craving and pursuit emerge, et cetera.
link |
00:16:05.840
Just like adrenaline is a generic theme
link |
00:16:09.000
of many different behaviors.
link |
00:16:10.160
And it seems that it is the job of biological systems
link |
00:16:13.720
to be able to take a diverse range of inputs,
link |
00:16:15.960
even unknown inputs, like we don't know
link |
00:16:18.720
what technology will look like in three years,
link |
00:16:20.840
but you can bet that some of those novel technologies
link |
00:16:22.700
will tap into the very systems that I'm talking about now.
link |
00:16:25.000
And there certainly will be other stressors to come about
link |
00:16:28.760
that will tap into these pathways.
link |
00:16:30.420
I have two questions related to what you just said
link |
00:16:33.180
before we talk a little bit more about cold and heat.
link |
00:16:36.560
You mentioned plants as a route
link |
00:16:39.520
to creating intermittent challenge.
link |
00:16:42.200
There's a lot of debate, mostly online,
link |
00:16:45.200
about whether or not plants are our friends
link |
00:16:46.640
or plants are trying to kill us.
link |
00:16:48.360
The extreme version from the carnivore types,
link |
00:16:51.500
pure carnivore diet types,
link |
00:16:52.760
is that plants are trying to kill us.
link |
00:16:54.420
From the plant-based diet folks,
link |
00:16:56.040
it seems like it's more about what's healthy
link |
00:16:58.860
for the plant and animals and maybe for us.
link |
00:17:01.180
But if we set aside that argument
link |
00:17:03.480
and we just raise the hypothesis
link |
00:17:05.560
that plants have compounds that are bad for us,
link |
00:17:09.420
but maybe by consuming them in small amounts,
link |
00:17:12.100
they're creating this hormesis type scenario.
link |
00:17:15.500
So then I think we conceivably solve the problem.
link |
00:17:20.060
We could say, yes, plants are bad for us,
link |
00:17:24.360
but in small amounts, they provide this hormetic response
link |
00:17:26.980
and they're good for us, right?
link |
00:17:28.240
So in the same way that too much heat is bad for us,
link |
00:17:31.620
too much cold is bad for us, can kill us, can kill neurons,
link |
00:17:34.060
but appropriately dosed in an intermittent challenge
link |
00:17:37.300
type of scenarios can be good for us.
link |
00:17:38.940
Is that how I should think about plants in these compounds?
link |
00:17:41.340
Do you think of them as good for us or as bad for us?
link |
00:17:45.220
They're a very sharp blade and we want to use them potently.
link |
00:17:48.220
I actually, I think that it's almost impossible.
link |
00:17:52.120
I mean, you'd have to eat nothing but the same plant
link |
00:17:56.080
all day, every day in large.
link |
00:17:57.780
I mean, the bioavailability of these compounds
link |
00:18:01.420
in the plants, they're attached to a food matrix.
link |
00:18:04.500
You know, it's not like taking it
link |
00:18:06.020
in a supplement form as well.
link |
00:18:07.620
It's such that it's very difficult to make it toxic.
link |
00:18:14.740
Now, there are some cases, for example,
link |
00:18:17.020
if you eat cabbage, and I think there's some group
link |
00:18:19.620
in Africa or somewhere that that's all they eat is cabbage,
link |
00:18:22.580
and there is a goitrogen in cabbage.
link |
00:18:24.660
It's not sulforaphane, it's another compound,
link |
00:18:26.900
but that's all they eat every day.
link |
00:18:28.900
Nothing but that.
link |
00:18:29.720
And they get, yeah, and they're like iodine deficient
link |
00:18:32.620
on top of that.
link |
00:18:33.460
So I do think you can, of course, make,
link |
00:18:38.500
I mean, there are types of plants that are toxic
link |
00:18:40.460
in small quantities, right?
link |
00:18:41.780
I mean, that-
link |
00:18:42.620
Hemlock.
link |
00:18:43.460
Hemlock, exactly.
link |
00:18:44.280
We'll kill you.
link |
00:18:45.120
Folks, don't play this game with hemlock.
link |
00:18:46.780
But you're not gonna get poisoned from eating,
link |
00:18:49.660
you know, your serving of broccoli at dinner, right?
link |
00:18:53.500
So, I mean, it depends on the plant.
link |
00:18:57.300
These generalizations are kind of, they're just not useful.
link |
00:19:00.660
And I think that a lot of people online,
link |
00:19:03.500
in the blogosphere, they gravitate towards them
link |
00:19:07.340
because it's just easier and it's a lot more sensational.
link |
00:19:10.900
Plants, meat, and starches,
link |
00:19:12.380
I'm one of those rare omnivores out there now.
link |
00:19:15.100
I feel like I'm a rare, or it's rare to be an omnivore,
link |
00:19:17.740
but I think once you step out of the social media,
link |
00:19:20.420
as you said, the blogosphere, most people,
link |
00:19:23.340
I would say 99% of people on the planet
link |
00:19:25.980
are probably omnivores.
link |
00:19:27.500
Right.
link |
00:19:28.340
And someone will probably correct me,
link |
00:19:29.260
but I doubt the number falls below 98.
link |
00:19:33.260
I think if you look at data,
link |
00:19:35.900
and when we have carnivore data,
link |
00:19:39.180
I can't wait to see it, but right now it's a lot of,
link |
00:19:41.900
okay, well, this is a lot of anecdotal evidence
link |
00:19:44.980
and there's a lot of good starts with anecdotes,
link |
00:19:49.500
but people change a thousand things at once
link |
00:19:51.820
and they don't realize that, but they do.
link |
00:19:55.140
And so anecdotal data is only so good, right?
link |
00:19:58.180
It's a starting point.
link |
00:19:59.700
And so we don't really know long-term
link |
00:20:02.300
what carnivore diets are gonna do.
link |
00:20:04.340
They may be beneficial short-term,
link |
00:20:06.820
they may be beneficial for reasons of elimination
link |
00:20:09.420
of other things, like who knows, right?
link |
00:20:11.060
Lots of possibilities.
link |
00:20:12.140
But I do think with respect to plants,
link |
00:20:17.340
there's so much evidence, like for example,
link |
00:20:19.700
sulforaphane is one that I really like
link |
00:20:21.900
because there's just evidence that sulforaphane
link |
00:20:25.980
is a very powerful activator of the Nrf2 pathway.
link |
00:20:29.220
And this is a pathway that regulates a lot of genes
link |
00:20:31.980
and a lot of genes that are related
link |
00:20:33.100
to like glutathione production,
link |
00:20:35.260
genes that are involved in detoxifying compounds
link |
00:20:38.220
that we're exposed to from our food,
link |
00:20:39.540
like heterocyclic amines.
link |
00:20:40.860
In fact, there have been GWAS studies.
link |
00:20:43.540
So these are genetically,
link |
00:20:45.380
these are studies that are genome-wide associated studies
link |
00:20:48.620
for people listening that aren't familiar.
link |
00:20:51.140
People have a variety of versions of genes
link |
00:20:54.300
and we have a gene that's able to make heterocyclic amines
link |
00:20:59.820
to basically detoxify it so it's not as harmful.
link |
00:21:03.940
And people that don't have a certain version of that
link |
00:21:07.820
that's doing it well are very prone
link |
00:21:09.780
to like colon cancer and increased cancer risk.
link |
00:21:12.660
But if they eat a lot of broccoli
link |
00:21:14.740
and cruciferous vegetables, it negates that risk
link |
00:21:16.860
because they're getting sulforaphane,
link |
00:21:18.980
which activates a lot of the glutathione transfer,
link |
00:21:22.500
glutathione transferase and synthase genes.
link |
00:21:24.940
So glutathione is a major antioxidant in our brain
link |
00:21:28.180
and in our vascular system and our body basically.
link |
00:21:31.660
So there's evidence that eating things
link |
00:21:36.220
like compounds that are like sulforaphane
link |
00:21:39.500
or broccoli or broccoli spouts,
link |
00:21:41.700
which have like up to 100 times more sulforaphane
link |
00:21:44.220
than broccoli are activating glutathione in the brain.
link |
00:21:47.140
There's human evidence of that.
link |
00:21:48.140
I mean, that's amazing.
link |
00:21:49.220
That is amazing.
link |
00:21:50.060
And plasma, yeah.
link |
00:21:51.380
Sorry to interrupt.
link |
00:21:52.220
I want to make sure when,
link |
00:21:53.820
so broccoli sprouts are different than broccoli.
link |
00:21:55.740
And you just told us that they have much,
link |
00:21:58.980
they're much richer in these compounds.
link |
00:22:02.620
So note to self, I should have broccoli sprouts,
link |
00:22:05.180
not just broccoli.
link |
00:22:06.380
Can we cook the broccoli and still get these nutrients
link |
00:22:08.580
or do we have to eat it raw?
link |
00:22:09.420
I confess eating raw broccoli is really aversive to me.
link |
00:22:13.540
So the sulforaphane is formed
link |
00:22:17.620
from a compound called glucoraphanin,
link |
00:22:19.700
which is in the broccoli.
link |
00:22:21.580
And the enzyme that converts it into sulforaphane
link |
00:22:23.980
is myrosinase and it's heat sensitive.
link |
00:22:26.700
So you do somewhat lower the sulforaphane levels
link |
00:22:29.980
when you cook the broccoli.
link |
00:22:31.900
However, there was a study a few years back
link |
00:22:34.700
that showed adding one gram of mustard seed powder,
link |
00:22:37.780
ground mustard seed powder,
link |
00:22:39.780
which also contains the myrosinase enzyme,
link |
00:22:42.700
to your cooked broccoli
link |
00:22:44.580
increases the sulforaphane by fourfold.
link |
00:22:47.020
So this is great.
link |
00:22:49.420
Because I confess, I like broccoli if it's cooked
link |
00:22:51.940
to the appropriate density,
link |
00:22:54.220
not too mushy, but definitely not raw.
link |
00:22:56.420
The idea of eating raw broccoli to me just sounds horrible,
link |
00:22:58.940
but I like the way mustard seed sounds.
link |
00:23:01.140
So just a little bit of mustard seed powder
link |
00:23:03.820
added to the cooked broccoli
link |
00:23:05.100
can recover some of these compounds.
link |
00:23:07.260
Yes, so what I do is I will lightly steam my broccoli
link |
00:23:11.580
and then I add a little bit of my Kerrygold butter
link |
00:23:15.100
and then I add some mustard seed powder on the top of that.
link |
00:23:18.420
And it's got a little kick.
link |
00:23:20.060
Like it's just a little spice, you know?
link |
00:23:21.820
And if you don't taste that, it's expired.
link |
00:23:23.860
Like it should have a little kick.
link |
00:23:25.620
And because I know people will want to know
link |
00:23:26.980
how often and how much, you know,
link |
00:23:29.380
are you eating this every day or most days of the week?
link |
00:23:32.980
Well, I had shifted to supplementation with sulforaphane.
link |
00:23:38.300
I'm admitting right now
link |
00:23:40.940
that I've been terrible about it the past,
link |
00:23:42.460
like, I don't know, six months or so.
link |
00:23:44.820
The supplementation or the broccoli?
link |
00:23:46.740
Yes, the supplementation.
link |
00:23:48.100
And so there's another way to get,
link |
00:23:52.660
there's another compound and it's actually called moringa.
link |
00:23:55.980
And Dr. Jed Fahey, who's really the expert on sulforaphane,
link |
00:24:01.460
he's a good friend of mine.
link |
00:24:02.300
He's been on the podcast a couple of times.
link |
00:24:03.700
He basically thinks and, you know,
link |
00:24:08.660
has done a lot of research on moringa as well
link |
00:24:10.820
that it's like a cousin and it activates the NRF2 pathway
link |
00:24:14.700
similarly to sulforaphane.
link |
00:24:16.780
And so I've been buying this Cooley Cooley moringa powder.
link |
00:24:19.980
I don't have any affiliation with them.
link |
00:24:21.260
Cooley Cooley is a brand.
link |
00:24:22.220
Cooley Cooley is a brand.
link |
00:24:23.300
That you have no affiliation to.
link |
00:24:24.300
I have no affiliation,
link |
00:24:25.340
but Jed Fahey has researched it like that specific brand.
link |
00:24:29.100
And so it's like, it's legit, you know,
link |
00:24:31.180
it's like science-backed
link |
00:24:32.860
in terms of actually containing moringa
link |
00:24:35.220
and activating NRF2 and I add it to my smoothies.
link |
00:24:39.060
So that's what I've been doing.
link |
00:24:41.100
What are some dose ranges?
link |
00:24:44.180
And of course we give the usual recommendations
link |
00:24:46.020
that people should talk to their physician,
link |
00:24:47.260
et cetera, et cetera.
link |
00:24:48.100
But if people are going to, what do you take?
link |
00:24:51.420
That's always the, let's take the David Sinclairian approach
link |
00:24:55.780
where he'll talk about what he does
link |
00:24:58.380
as a way to deal with this.
link |
00:24:59.620
And of course, everybody's different and should,
link |
00:25:01.780
in all seriousness, should,
link |
00:25:03.740
anytime you add or delete something from your consumption
link |
00:25:07.260
should consult some trusted healthcare professional,
link |
00:25:10.700
trusted by you.
link |
00:25:12.180
What, do you recall the dosages?
link |
00:25:14.220
I do a big heaping tablespoon.
link |
00:25:16.780
So moringa, coolly coolly moringa, it sounds like a song.
link |
00:25:19.900
It's with a K, I know.
link |
00:25:23.460
But, you know, for people also listening,
link |
00:25:25.780
it's like, well, why would I do that?
link |
00:25:26.780
You know, I mentioned the glutathione in the brain.
link |
00:25:28.340
I mentioned it in plasma.
link |
00:25:30.900
It's been shown to lower DNA damage in people
link |
00:25:33.220
and white blood cells.
link |
00:25:35.460
It's also been shown,
link |
00:25:36.580
there's been several different studies in China.
link |
00:25:38.860
You know, in China, there's a lot of air pollution.
link |
00:25:40.580
And I mentioned that, you know,
link |
00:25:41.660
it's a very powerful activator of NRF2
link |
00:25:43.820
and I know you're familiar with NRF2,
link |
00:25:45.260
but NRF2 is like, it's your transcription factor
link |
00:25:48.180
that is, it is binding to a little specific sequence
link |
00:25:52.500
in a variety of different genes
link |
00:25:53.780
and it's like turning them on,
link |
00:25:55.580
or in some cases, turning them off.
link |
00:25:57.220
It's regulating what's being activated
link |
00:25:59.220
or what's not being activated or being turned off.
link |
00:26:01.460
And some of the genes are basically
link |
00:26:04.100
these detoxifying pathways.
link |
00:26:06.180
We talked a little bit about the glutathione,
link |
00:26:07.700
but there's also ones that are involved
link |
00:26:09.220
in airborne carcinogens like benzene.
link |
00:26:13.420
So benzene is found in air pollution,
link |
00:26:15.260
I mean, cigarette smoke.
link |
00:26:17.020
If you're smoking cigarettes still,
link |
00:26:18.580
like please try to quit.
link |
00:26:19.820
Yeah, you're mutating your DNA.
link |
00:26:20.660
I mean, yeah.
link |
00:26:21.500
Like just say nothing of the lung cancer,
link |
00:26:23.220
you're mutating your DNA.
link |
00:26:24.340
And heart disease risk, heart disease risk.
link |
00:26:26.220
But anyways, people, and this has been repeated
link |
00:26:29.780
in more than one study,
link |
00:26:31.220
that literally after 24 hours of taking,
link |
00:26:33.980
I can't remember off the top of my head
link |
00:26:35.380
what the dose of sulforaphane from broccoli extract,
link |
00:26:39.660
broccoli seed extract was, or broccoli sprouts extract,
link |
00:26:44.460
not the seed, it was the sprouts.
link |
00:26:46.500
Anyways, they started excreting
link |
00:26:47.900
like 60% benzene and acrolein.
link |
00:26:50.020
I mean, that's something that we get in cooked food.
link |
00:26:51.500
It's coming out in their urine?
link |
00:26:52.420
Coming out in their urine.
link |
00:26:53.940
Yeah.
link |
00:26:54.780
Well, I'm not a smoker and I have to be honest,
link |
00:26:56.620
it's rare that I hear of a supplement for the first time
link |
00:26:59.420
because I've been deep diving on supplements
link |
00:27:02.740
since I was in my teens.
link |
00:27:04.460
This is fascinating.
link |
00:27:05.940
And it brings me back to this question that we had before.
link |
00:27:08.980
And I appreciate that you answered it very clearly.
link |
00:27:12.340
Plants have compounds that are good for us.
link |
00:27:14.180
They're not just stressing us.
link |
00:27:15.460
They're activating pathways that are reparative.
link |
00:27:18.500
That's what I'm taking away
link |
00:27:19.980
from everything you're telling me.
link |
00:27:21.260
Right.
link |
00:27:22.100
And that our bodies,
link |
00:27:24.900
we're supposed to be getting that stress
link |
00:27:27.620
to have those pathways activated.
link |
00:27:29.340
Like it is like, you know, right?
link |
00:27:32.060
I mean, this is conserved among different animals.
link |
00:27:34.580
Like this is something that is,
link |
00:27:38.540
it's supposed to happen.
link |
00:27:39.660
And in our modern day world,
link |
00:27:42.540
we don't have to eat plants.
link |
00:27:45.380
We don't have to move anywhere or exercise.
link |
00:27:48.100
We don't have to go through periods of not eating food
link |
00:27:50.180
because we can have it at our fingertips at any second.
link |
00:27:52.340
Right?
link |
00:27:53.180
So, I mean, we've got this conundrum of
link |
00:27:57.220
we're never activating these stress response pathways
link |
00:27:59.260
that we're supposed to activate.
link |
00:28:01.340
We're supposed to.
link |
00:28:02.180
I find that fascinating.
link |
00:28:03.140
And again, drawing a parallel to the nervous system.
link |
00:28:07.300
So what I'm hearing you say is that historically,
link |
00:28:10.420
we would have to go through some stress,
link |
00:28:12.180
some confront cold or confront heat
link |
00:28:14.180
or confront effort or hunger
link |
00:28:17.060
and have to exercise essentially
link |
00:28:18.980
in order to obtain these compounds.
link |
00:28:20.900
And then those compounds are reparative.
link |
00:28:22.740
Yeah, I feel that resembles the dopamine pathway.
link |
00:28:27.300
I always say, you know,
link |
00:28:28.140
there's nothing wrong with dopamine.
link |
00:28:29.140
People think about dopamine hits as bad or dopamine is bad.
link |
00:28:31.620
There's absolutely nothing wrong with dopamine.
link |
00:28:33.740
The problem is dopamine,
link |
00:28:35.540
especially high levels of dopamine,
link |
00:28:38.260
released without the need for effort
link |
00:28:40.500
to access that dopamine is problematic.
link |
00:28:42.940
So a line of cocaine gives you a ton of dopamine
link |
00:28:45.220
with no effort except to ingest the drug.
link |
00:28:47.500
Whereas working for four years or more to get your degree
link |
00:28:51.460
will release a lot of dopamine
link |
00:28:53.220
and a lot of cortisol along the way, as we know.
link |
00:28:56.220
And it's considered a healthy accomplishment in most cases.
link |
00:28:59.900
A tremendous amount of,
link |
00:29:01.620
we're approaching the spring
link |
00:29:02.860
and there'll be a lot of graduations.
link |
00:29:04.140
Weddings are coming up now that the pandemic
link |
00:29:06.020
is kind of hopefully slowing
link |
00:29:08.100
and there'll be a lot of dopamine.
link |
00:29:09.500
High levels of dopamine are great,
link |
00:29:10.820
but only after the effort of having done something
link |
00:29:13.980
in order to access it.
link |
00:29:14.940
And so that's what I'm taking away from what you're saying
link |
00:29:17.060
is that we need to go through this intermittent,
link |
00:29:20.340
the different types of intermittent challenge.
link |
00:29:22.140
And we are rewarded with particular compounds
link |
00:29:26.420
that are reparative both for the challenge,
link |
00:29:28.380
but then make us stronger.
link |
00:29:29.620
It is, hormesis really is, it seems,
link |
00:29:31.220
the case of what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
link |
00:29:34.540
What, so you mentioned-
link |
00:29:35.860
Can I add to that one thing you just said?
link |
00:29:37.380
Because this has been shown with, for example,
link |
00:29:40.500
sulforaphane in animal studies,
link |
00:29:42.420
you precondition, give the animal sulforaphane
link |
00:29:44.860
and then you expose them to like hypoxia
link |
00:29:47.460
or some kind of ischemic stroke condition,
link |
00:29:50.060
whatever they do to induce that.
link |
00:29:51.620
And the sulforaphane, it basically protects them.
link |
00:29:55.460
Like their precondition
link |
00:29:56.900
and their stress response pathways are primed.
link |
00:29:59.980
And so when they're then exposed to the ischemic stroke,
link |
00:30:03.060
their outcomes are so much better,
link |
00:30:05.740
so much better than the animals
link |
00:30:07.540
that didn't get the sulforaphane 48 hours before,
link |
00:30:09.580
whatever it was.
link |
00:30:10.740
And this has been shown in multiple animal studies
link |
00:30:13.460
with sulforaphane specifically in the brain.
link |
00:30:15.900
I know Mark Mattson, Dr. Mark Mattson,
link |
00:30:18.140
he's often thought of as the intermittent fasting king,
link |
00:30:21.900
but he's a neuroscientist and he did publish some work
link |
00:30:26.100
and talks about sulforaphane as well.
link |
00:30:28.180
I'm really glad you brought that example up
link |
00:30:30.940
because many of the questions I get on social media
link |
00:30:34.100
and elsewhere are about traumatic brain injury
link |
00:30:36.700
and TBI is just one example.
link |
00:30:40.500
And people always think, oh, sports, it's football.
link |
00:30:42.980
Whenever you say TBI, people always think football.
link |
00:30:44.820
And I just want to just take a moment to editorialize.
link |
00:30:48.820
90% or more of traumatic brain injury
link |
00:30:51.220
is construction work, at-home accidents.
link |
00:30:54.940
Football players are,
link |
00:30:56.140
hockey players are, martial artists are a tiny fraction
link |
00:30:59.500
of the people who have TBI and concussion of various kinds.
link |
00:31:03.060
It just so happens that within those communities,
link |
00:31:05.260
many of them, 75% or more, experience those.
link |
00:31:08.060
So it's salient within those communities,
link |
00:31:09.740
but concussion is prominent.
link |
00:31:12.260
People are always asking,
link |
00:31:13.100
what can I do in order to offset brain injury?
link |
00:31:17.060
I had a concussion two years ago, what can I do?
link |
00:31:19.100
And it's been a tough question
link |
00:31:21.100
because we really don't have anything for them.
link |
00:31:23.280
I mean, you tell them sleep well, eat well, exercise,
link |
00:31:27.020
but it sounds like some of these reparative pathways
link |
00:31:30.180
either should be explored in the context of brain injury
link |
00:31:33.300
or I'm guessing are being explored
link |
00:31:35.020
in the context of brain injury.
link |
00:31:36.140
Yeah, so a couple of things there.
link |
00:31:38.100
One is that, I mean, traumatic brain injury,
link |
00:31:40.820
I mean, it's terrible, but it's also,
link |
00:31:43.260
it's so interesting because it's also
link |
00:31:45.380
like literal real-time brain aging.
link |
00:31:48.660
Like, you know, like it's,
link |
00:31:50.100
you're able to like accelerate it and understand.
link |
00:31:52.620
So I often think of,
link |
00:31:54.300
when I think of traumatic brain injury,
link |
00:31:56.220
I think of so much overlap between Alzheimer's disease
link |
00:31:59.020
and dementia and these neurodegenerative diseases
link |
00:32:01.020
because there are a lot of similarities there, you know?
link |
00:32:04.820
And so sulforaphane, I personally think,
link |
00:32:08.060
and I do think there's been some animal research with TBI,
link |
00:32:11.060
I mean, and sulforaphane,
link |
00:32:13.780
mostly preconditioning rather than treatment.
link |
00:32:17.580
So again, it's like, well, I mean, if you're gonna,
link |
00:32:20.260
if you want a healthy lifestyle thing
link |
00:32:21.700
and you're a construction worker
link |
00:32:22.940
or you're fill in the blank, that's, you know, gonna,
link |
00:32:25.300
I mean, anyone that drives into a car,
link |
00:32:26.700
I mean, you're at risk to some degree, right?
link |
00:32:28.220
Or bicycle.
link |
00:32:29.060
Bicycle, yeah.
link |
00:32:29.900
Around Stanford, we have, you know,
link |
00:32:31.460
I would say people demonize motorcycles.
link |
00:32:34.420
People demonize a lot of things,
link |
00:32:35.940
but moving fast through space on a small object
link |
00:32:39.820
next to a 3,000 pound vehicle, I mean, we've lost,
link |
00:32:43.340
we have a number of friends that have died.
link |
00:32:44.600
We have a number of people with traumatic brain injury.
link |
00:32:46.740
I'm not against cycling or cyclists,
link |
00:32:48.200
but it is, it's a risky sport by any stretch.
link |
00:32:53.740
So in taking things like moringa
link |
00:32:56.780
or eating my broccoli sprouts,
link |
00:32:59.240
maybe cooking them a little less
link |
00:33:00.380
than I'm currently cooking them,
link |
00:33:01.380
putting on the mustard seed,
link |
00:33:04.380
is there evidence that,
link |
00:33:05.980
well, first of all, NRF2 is expressed in neurons, right?
link |
00:33:09.500
So those cells should be protected.
link |
00:33:11.100
Are there other cells of the body
link |
00:33:12.460
that could possibly gain protection from these pathways?
link |
00:33:15.900
Well, lungs, for one, but just even in plasma cells,
link |
00:33:21.180
I mean, I think it's pretty,
link |
00:33:22.940
NRF2 is pretty ubiquitously expressed.
link |
00:33:25.940
Liver, so there's, I mean,
link |
00:33:28.340
there's so many animal studies
link |
00:33:29.700
that have looked at all those things.
link |
00:33:30.660
I try to kind of gravitate towards human ones
link |
00:33:32.660
because it's a lot more relevant.
link |
00:33:35.860
But I think, you know, overall,
link |
00:33:37.180
like I mentioned, you know, DNA damage lower,
link |
00:33:40.420
it's like 24 or 34% lower in human blood cells
link |
00:33:44.980
after broccoli sprout powder supplementation.
link |
00:33:49.140
And I made a video on this like years ago, 2016 maybe,
link |
00:33:53.180
and I think I have like the references on there
link |
00:33:54.900
to exact amounts, I can't remember.
link |
00:33:56.860
But it's kind of an old video, it's 2016.
link |
00:34:00.420
But I also had Jed on the podcast
link |
00:34:02.620
and he did talk about this.
link |
00:34:04.660
But you know, it's also been shown
link |
00:34:05.980
in randomized controlled trials
link |
00:34:07.100
to help treat autism and autistic symptoms.
link |
00:34:09.380
And yet again, it's doing interesting things in the brain.
link |
00:34:12.440
And I think it does have something to do
link |
00:34:15.940
with the oxidative stress and the glutathione,
link |
00:34:18.180
which would be relevant for TBI treatment.
link |
00:34:21.300
It hasn't been shown empirically
link |
00:34:23.540
that that helps with treatment,
link |
00:34:25.440
but I do think someone could do that study.
link |
00:34:29.360
I think that it should be done, honestly,
link |
00:34:31.860
because it's a low-hanging fruit.
link |
00:34:33.260
I mean, if there's any impact,
link |
00:34:34.880
and there is at least one preliminary study
link |
00:34:37.100
that glutathione is increased in the brain
link |
00:34:39.100
after humans are basically taking sulforaphane, so.
link |
00:34:43.580
Which is really, for people listening,
link |
00:34:45.180
that's so important because a number of compounds
link |
00:34:47.340
that people take in supplement form
link |
00:34:49.080
don't cross the blood brain barrier,
link |
00:34:50.940
or they get metabolized in ways
link |
00:34:52.620
that what's listed on the bottle almost becomes irrelevant
link |
00:34:55.260
for what your cells actually experience.
link |
00:34:57.420
So that's very reassuring.
link |
00:34:59.460
We will get back to heat and cold
link |
00:35:00.800
and this theme that I tried to surface,
link |
00:35:02.420
but I just find this too interesting
link |
00:35:03.840
to diverge at this point from these themes.
link |
00:35:08.460
So what other compounds or micronutrients
link |
00:35:11.740
do you place in the top tier of useful, interesting,
link |
00:35:17.700
there are animal studies,
link |
00:35:18.700
maybe there are hopefully also some human studies.
link |
00:35:21.140
We've talked about a few.
link |
00:35:22.700
I know you've talked a lot about omega-3 fatty acids.
link |
00:35:25.180
So if you had to do your kind of top three,
link |
00:35:28.740
your superstars of nutrients for the brain and body,
link |
00:35:32.760
sounds like we've got one set.
link |
00:35:35.060
What would you put in alongside them?
link |
00:35:37.280
Omega-3, the marine omega-3 fatty acids.
link |
00:35:40.500
So these are found in marine types of animals,
link |
00:35:45.540
fish, cold water fish, fatty fish.
link |
00:35:47.820
So there's three fatty acids.
link |
00:35:50.020
There's one from a plant and that's often referred to
link |
00:35:53.460
as ALA, people call it short, affilinoic acid.
link |
00:35:56.580
And then there's eicosapentaenoic acid,
link |
00:35:59.100
or EPA, and docahexaenoic acid, which is DHA.
link |
00:36:02.380
Yeah, but EPA-
link |
00:36:03.220
I'm amazed you can pronounce two
link |
00:36:04.060
of the most difficult words to pronounce right next to it
link |
00:36:06.900
and spell right next to ophthalmology,
link |
00:36:09.180
which if you can spell it.
link |
00:36:10.620
I know people who have appointments
link |
00:36:12.220
in ophthalmology departments
link |
00:36:13.420
that don't know how to spell ophthalmology.
link |
00:36:15.660
Little secret, there's an extra P in there.
link |
00:36:18.580
So the ALA, I'm not going to attempt to pronounce it
link |
00:36:23.040
because your pronunciation was perfect,
link |
00:36:24.560
of both of these two compounds.
link |
00:36:26.580
And you said are marine sources.
link |
00:36:28.160
So fish, so sardines, cod, this sort of thing.
link |
00:36:30.620
But what about krill?
link |
00:36:31.940
I've seen krill oil.
link |
00:36:33.220
And there was a few years back,
link |
00:36:34.980
people were saying krill is a better source
link |
00:36:36.840
for omega-3s than is fish oil.
link |
00:36:41.340
I took some krill oil capsules, made me itch all over.
link |
00:36:46.380
So I stopped.
link |
00:36:47.220
Do you have a shellfish allergy?
link |
00:36:48.300
No, I don't think so.
link |
00:36:49.500
I don't think so.
link |
00:36:50.340
I'm not a big fan of shellfish,
link |
00:36:51.160
but I like, you know, I'll have oysters every now and again,
link |
00:36:53.220
or shrimp or something and feel fine, so.
link |
00:36:55.780
Yeah, we can talk about sources.
link |
00:36:57.040
So krill is a source mostly of a type of DHA and EPA
link |
00:37:02.040
that's in phospholipid form.
link |
00:37:04.320
So it's a phosphatidylcholine omega-3 fatty acid.
link |
00:37:08.200
And that's different than most of the,
link |
00:37:12.640
well, if we're talking about fish oil supplements,
link |
00:37:14.600
that's a different story.
link |
00:37:15.440
But if you're talking about comparing fish to eating krill,
link |
00:37:18.800
like we're talking about the foods.
link |
00:37:19.640
Oh, I would never eat krill.
link |
00:37:20.480
Okay, are we talking about the supplements?
link |
00:37:21.800
Okay, so fish oil supplements.
link |
00:37:22.640
Yes, I apologize.
link |
00:37:23.480
Yeah, krill supplement versus fish oil supplement.
link |
00:37:27.400
And if it fits, if it's a fish oil supplement,
link |
00:37:31.080
if it fits in the conversation,
link |
00:37:33.600
talking about great sources of omega-3s in their whole form,
link |
00:37:37.920
I have a bad feeling you're going to tell me sardines.
link |
00:37:41.440
Sardines are, yeah, they're awesome.
link |
00:37:43.440
Anyways, except for the taste.
link |
00:37:45.920
And for the potential contaminants,
link |
00:37:49.080
mercury, I think, was one.
link |
00:37:50.880
No, Joe was, yeah, it was mercury.
link |
00:37:52.820
And Joe was telling me about,
link |
00:37:55.400
like he used to eat sardines every day.
link |
00:37:56.680
Joe Rogan was telling me that he used to eat sardines
link |
00:37:58.640
every day, and then he had really high mercury levels.
link |
00:38:02.840
And I was really shocked, because sardines are low
link |
00:38:06.520
in the fish groups.
link |
00:38:09.560
So the higher up you get, swordfish and sharks,
link |
00:38:12.880
really high mercury,
link |
00:38:13.720
because they're eating all the other fish, right?
link |
00:38:16.200
But I think some brands,
link |
00:38:18.440
and if you look at Consumer Lab,
link |
00:38:20.840
Consumer Lab, it's like a third-party site
link |
00:38:23.200
that I'm affiliated with, but I use them
link |
00:38:25.800
because they do a lot of analysis of different foods
link |
00:38:29.360
and supplements.
link |
00:38:30.240
And so you can look at some of their sardines,
link |
00:38:32.720
and they have a list of ones that are pretty decent.
link |
00:38:35.600
But anyways, back to your question
link |
00:38:37.800
about fish oil supplements versus krill oil supplements.
link |
00:38:41.400
So one of the major differences is that fish oil supplements,
link |
00:38:46.200
if you get a high-quality one, it's in a triglyceride form.
link |
00:38:50.200
So you've got a glycerol backbone with three fatty acids,
link |
00:38:54.920
and that's attached, and those are either DHA or the EPA.
link |
00:39:00.480
Or if you have a lower-quality fish oil supplement,
link |
00:39:03.280
then you have what's called ethyl ester form.
link |
00:39:05.840
And typically, the reason for that,
link |
00:39:07.560
it's when fish oil is purified,
link |
00:39:10.800
it's run through this column with alcohol or something,
link |
00:39:13.760
they cleave it off the glycerol backbone,
link |
00:39:15.720
and then it's just kind of easier to leave it like that
link |
00:39:18.000
than re-esterifying it, which costs more money.
link |
00:39:20.600
So you can get it in ethyl ester form,
link |
00:39:22.600
which isn't as bioavailable.
link |
00:39:25.600
And in fact, if you don't take it with food,
link |
00:39:28.200
you're going to be in trouble.
link |
00:39:29.280
You're not going to absorb much of it at all.
link |
00:39:31.880
Would you see this on the packaging?
link |
00:39:33.400
Is it going to say it's in this ethyl form?
link |
00:39:35.920
Some fish oil brands will put it on their website,
link |
00:39:40.120
perhaps on their packaging, but most of the time,
link |
00:39:43.000
you'll have to dig for it on the website and or call them.
link |
00:39:46.520
But I think, for the most part, ones that are higher end
link |
00:39:49.640
will market it like triglyceride form.
link |
00:39:51.920
And it's not that ethyl ester is bad,
link |
00:39:53.480
it just means take it with food.
link |
00:39:54.480
So one of the major prescription omega-3s out there
link |
00:39:59.600
is both of them, actually.
link |
00:40:01.040
Lavazza, which is a mixture of DHA and EPA,
link |
00:40:04.720
as well as Vasipa, which is a highly purified EPA.
link |
00:40:07.360
These are both prescribed by physicians to patients
link |
00:40:10.440
with hypertriglyceridemia.
link |
00:40:12.200
So high triglycerides, among other things,
link |
00:40:14.960
I think maybe dysregulation of lipids as well.
link |
00:40:18.640
This is amazing for people, so these are prescription drugs
link |
00:40:22.120
that are essentially very high potency purified omega-3s,
link |
00:40:25.500
but they're given to people for lipid issues.
link |
00:40:27.920
So this is the treatment of issues with fat metabolism
link |
00:40:31.100
by giving people fat.
link |
00:40:32.640
Just to really, I just want to push home,
link |
00:40:35.200
again, I'm not carnivore keto or anything,
link |
00:40:36.840
I'm an omnivore, but to just push home that we,
link |
00:40:41.240
one thing that's so wonderful that you've done
link |
00:40:43.200
over the years and that you continue to do
link |
00:40:44.880
is to move away from these very broad sweeping statements
link |
00:40:49.920
about fat is bad.
link |
00:40:51.200
I mean, here's a case where we're saying fat
link |
00:40:52.680
is not only good, it can be used to combat issues
link |
00:40:56.420
with that metabolism.
link |
00:40:57.880
And then fats are not just one thing, they're many things.
link |
00:41:02.120
So anyway, I just want to put a little highlighter
link |
00:41:04.200
and a point of appreciation there and make sure
link |
00:41:06.180
that people are sensitized to the fact that if you hear
link |
00:41:10.520
that fat is bad, you have to ask what kind of fat, right?
link |
00:41:13.080
And here we're talking about these omega-3s.
link |
00:41:15.400
Okay, so the triglyceride form can be taken
link |
00:41:17.680
with or without food, and there's prescription forms.
link |
00:41:22.480
What's, I can't get, I don't know if I can get ahold
link |
00:41:25.480
of the prescription form unless-
link |
00:41:27.380
You have high triglycerides.
link |
00:41:28.680
Or I have a friend with high triglycerides.
link |
00:41:30.640
It's illegal folks, don't share prescription drugs.
link |
00:41:33.280
Or you talk to your doctor and you say,
link |
00:41:34.600
I'm already taking this from,
link |
00:41:36.600
I mean, I don't know how it works.
link |
00:41:37.520
Anyways.
link |
00:41:38.360
What's the dosage that you recommend people get?
link |
00:41:40.960
So-
link |
00:41:41.800
One way or another.
link |
00:41:42.720
All right.
link |
00:41:43.560
Okay, so the dosage that physicians prescribe
link |
00:41:46.080
for high triglycerides, for example, is four grams a day.
link |
00:41:50.040
Four grams of EPA?
link |
00:41:51.440
Of, yes, of the Veseepa.
link |
00:41:55.160
I think Lavazza's also prescribed at four grams a day.
link |
00:41:58.240
And you can get either of those from your physician.
link |
00:42:01.800
My father-in-law just got one of them prescribed
link |
00:42:03.360
because we were buying our own omega-3 for years and years.
link |
00:42:05.580
It's like, hey, you can actually get this
link |
00:42:07.040
and health insurance can cover it.
link |
00:42:08.560
And it's a really purified form,
link |
00:42:09.960
but you have to take it with food.
link |
00:42:11.200
That was the bottom line.
link |
00:42:13.000
I've totally gone on tangents,
link |
00:42:14.540
but you're asking more interesting questions anyways.
link |
00:42:16.880
Well, normally I ask about mechanism
link |
00:42:18.560
and then I talk about protocols, but in the-
link |
00:42:21.000
Or the why.
link |
00:42:21.840
Or the why.
link |
00:42:22.680
I mean, we haven't gotten there yet.
link |
00:42:23.760
But I think that, and we definitely will get there,
link |
00:42:25.960
but I think a number of people nowadays
link |
00:42:27.800
are just really excited about what they can do
link |
00:42:30.620
for their health.
link |
00:42:31.460
And so here we're just raising the importance of omega-3s
link |
00:42:34.560
and then we'll definitely get to the why
link |
00:42:35.760
and the underlying mechanism.
link |
00:42:37.040
I think four grams is,
link |
00:42:39.160
I mean, and in fact, Bill Harris, Dr. Bill Harris,
link |
00:42:44.720
he's just one of the pioneers
link |
00:42:46.280
on omega-3 fatty acid research.
link |
00:42:47.920
He was on our podcast last August.
link |
00:42:51.320
And he was saying the reason FDA chose that
link |
00:42:54.460
was literally just because how much
link |
00:42:56.720
they could get people to take.
link |
00:42:59.480
It wasn't like an upper end,
link |
00:43:00.800
oh, anything above that is unsafe.
link |
00:43:02.880
That wasn't the case.
link |
00:43:04.400
I mean, it was just purely cost
link |
00:43:07.640
and like compliance.
link |
00:43:11.080
So like what they can get into a pill,
link |
00:43:13.080
the amount they can get
link |
00:43:13.900
and how many pills they can get people to take.
link |
00:43:15.960
I'm smiling because our good friend,
link |
00:43:18.400
Sachin Panda at the Salk Institute,
link |
00:43:20.560
who's done a lot of important work on intermittent fasting
link |
00:43:22.720
and other incredible work on circadian rhythms, et cetera.
link |
00:43:26.720
When I was talking to him in preparation
link |
00:43:29.040
for an episode on intermittent fasting,
link |
00:43:31.160
I said, why the eight hour feeding window?
link |
00:43:33.360
And he said, well, the graduate student
link |
00:43:34.980
who ran those studies had a partner,
link |
00:43:37.240
I think it was a girlfriend as I recall,
link |
00:43:38.880
hope I didn't get that backward.
link |
00:43:40.240
And the partner said, listen,
link |
00:43:42.860
you can be in lab 10 hours a day,
link |
00:43:45.740
but you can't be in lab 14 hours a day
link |
00:43:47.480
if you want this relationship to work.
link |
00:43:49.200
And so it was eight hours of feeding window
link |
00:43:50.940
plus some measurements and time to walk into the lab,
link |
00:43:53.580
park the car, et cetera.
link |
00:43:54.760
And so the eight hour feeding window
link |
00:43:56.080
that everyone holds so wholly
link |
00:43:57.840
was actually just born out of this relationship
link |
00:44:00.580
between these two graduate students.
link |
00:44:02.000
Had they been single,
link |
00:44:03.600
I was single all through graduate school
link |
00:44:05.400
or most of it anyway.
link |
00:44:06.560
And I lived in the lab.
link |
00:44:07.700
So if it'd been me, we'd all be,
link |
00:44:09.280
intermittent fasting would mean eating 14 hours a day.
link |
00:44:11.760
That was a joke, not a good one,
link |
00:44:13.360
but I just want to make clear I'm joking.
link |
00:44:15.280
But the point that you're making is a really good one
link |
00:44:17.160
that the four gram amount is not a threshold
link |
00:44:23.120
based on anything except the threshold
link |
00:44:25.200
of people's willingness to actually take the stop.
link |
00:44:28.400
So, and I think that's important for people to hear
link |
00:44:30.900
because so often we hear the eight hour feeding window,
link |
00:44:33.200
four grams of EPA, you know, 150 minutes of cardio.
link |
00:44:37.480
And it's really a question of what you can reasonably do
link |
00:44:40.180
in a study.
link |
00:44:41.460
So I take four grams a day.
link |
00:44:42.840
I take two in the morning, two grams in the morning
link |
00:44:44.880
and I take two grams in the evening.
link |
00:44:46.280
I take my EPA in the morning
link |
00:44:47.960
and I take my DHA in the evening.
link |
00:44:49.800
You split them.
link |
00:44:50.720
I do, I don't know if,
link |
00:44:53.440
I don't think it's necessary, not necessarily.
link |
00:44:55.960
I just happen to buy,
link |
00:44:57.080
I happen to get a certain fish oil supplement
link |
00:44:59.080
that's like separates them.
link |
00:45:00.480
And so, you know, like Lavazza,
link |
00:45:02.740
Lavazza is a great one and it's all like in one
link |
00:45:04.720
and it's easier.
link |
00:45:05.560
What if someone doesn't have a prescription?
link |
00:45:07.040
So I take over the counter fish oil.
link |
00:45:09.720
I know I feel better
link |
00:45:10.940
because I've done the experiment of going on and off.
link |
00:45:12.640
I take the mainly for, I don't have depression,
link |
00:45:14.980
but my mood is better.
link |
00:45:18.120
My joints feel better.
link |
00:45:19.640
I just feel better.
link |
00:45:21.440
And I like to think that my platelets are slipperier
link |
00:45:23.480
and they're cruising through any little obstructions
link |
00:45:27.760
in my veins or arteries.
link |
00:45:29.000
That's the image I have in my head,
link |
00:45:30.360
but I don't have any data to support that part.
link |
00:45:32.440
Yeah.
link |
00:45:33.280
I mean, so if you're asking for like,
link |
00:45:35.240
where do people get these?
link |
00:45:36.640
Well, let's say I look at the bottle
link |
00:45:38.400
and it says two grams per serving,
link |
00:45:41.760
but then I look and it's 750 milligrams of EPA, right?
link |
00:45:48.080
Or a thousand milligrams of EPA.
link |
00:45:49.600
Let's say half of it is EPA.
link |
00:45:50.800
Then do I want to hit a threshold of EPA
link |
00:45:53.780
or a threshold of what's listed on the bottle, right?
link |
00:45:58.780
On the front of the bottle.
link |
00:46:00.560
And because my understanding is that we need
link |
00:46:02.620
to hit a threshold level of EPA
link |
00:46:05.220
in order to derive these important benefits.
link |
00:46:08.260
I think two grams is a good threshold.
link |
00:46:11.460
Now, the International Fish Oil Standards, IFSO,
link |
00:46:17.160
they have a website where they do third-party testing
link |
00:46:20.220
of a ton of different fish oil supplements
link |
00:46:23.860
from around the world.
link |
00:46:25.380
And they measure the concentration of the omega-3 fatty acids
link |
00:46:29.320
in the actual supplement
link |
00:46:30.460
because nothing is ever what it says on the bottle.
link |
00:46:33.780
And then they also measure contaminants.
link |
00:46:36.620
So mercury, PCBs, dioxins,
link |
00:46:38.960
things that you'd find potentially in fish
link |
00:46:41.340
that are harmful to humans.
link |
00:46:43.340
And they also measure mercury and then oxidized fatty acids.
link |
00:46:47.580
So these omega-3 fatty acids
link |
00:46:49.500
are polyunsaturated fatty acids,
link |
00:46:51.740
which are extremely prone to oxidation.
link |
00:46:54.360
So please keep your fish oil in the refrigerator
link |
00:46:57.380
because it's colder.
link |
00:46:58.460
Yeah, they're extremely prone.
link |
00:46:59.780
Mine's in the cupboard, so now I know.
link |
00:47:01.620
The shelf life's increased.
link |
00:47:03.940
It's lower oxidation.
link |
00:47:05.540
It makes perfect sense.
link |
00:47:06.380
Right.
link |
00:47:07.700
So anyways, they measure that.
link |
00:47:10.420
And I typically like to look for,
link |
00:47:12.180
they give you a total oxidation number.
link |
00:47:13.920
It's called TOTOX.
link |
00:47:15.620
No, T-O-T-O-X, TOTOX is what we call it for short.
link |
00:47:19.180
And I like it to be at the least under 10, ideally under six.
link |
00:47:23.540
It's really hard to find all the right mixtures of things.
link |
00:47:26.860
But people can go to this website
link |
00:47:30.140
and they can browse through the products.
link |
00:47:31.740
I have put together an Excel sheet,
link |
00:47:34.380
which I have a YouTube little screencast
link |
00:47:37.700
that I'm yet to publish, press the publish button on.
link |
00:47:40.060
But it basically, you have to go back and check and update
link |
00:47:42.580
because these are from different lot numbers
link |
00:47:44.980
of the products.
link |
00:47:45.940
They do have up to like 20, 27 or something.
link |
00:47:48.960
And so I've gone through and found my top picks
link |
00:47:51.780
of high EPA brands and high DHA brands
link |
00:47:54.580
if I were to buy some, the ones that I would choose
link |
00:47:57.380
because of the low total oxidation
link |
00:47:59.740
and the high concentration of either EPA or DHA.
link |
00:48:02.380
Now, people can go and do this themselves.
link |
00:48:05.220
It just takes some work.
link |
00:48:06.240
No, I'm glad that you did the work.
link |
00:48:07.900
I'm going to put up a tweet every week with you tagged
link |
00:48:13.300
until this list is published online.
link |
00:48:15.180
Sorry, Rhonda, but I'm going to do it.
link |
00:48:16.980
I know it's very sadistic of me,
link |
00:48:18.380
but in service to the community and myself.
link |
00:48:21.180
And I chose five brands from each and I tried to choose.
link |
00:48:23.100
I tried to find one in like Europe and one in Canada.
link |
00:48:25.460
So there was like a great selection of US and other.
link |
00:48:28.580
I don't want to do that work and I trust you.
link |
00:48:31.260
So yeah, I try and get two grams per day of EPA
link |
00:48:35.020
from supplementation.
link |
00:48:36.180
I'll now put it in the refrigerator.
link |
00:48:38.000
Mood is better.
link |
00:48:38.840
I made that decision mainly based on the data
link |
00:48:42.000
that I'm aware of looking at comparison
link |
00:48:45.380
of people doing that anywhere from two to four grams
link |
00:48:47.980
of EPA per day compared to SSRIs,
link |
00:48:51.460
serotonin selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors
link |
00:48:54.060
and treatment of depression.
link |
00:48:55.700
And I don't want to take an SSRI if I don't have to.
link |
00:48:57.940
And fortunately I don't have to,
link |
00:48:59.220
but the data by my read are remarkable.
link |
00:49:02.140
People that take these things in sufficient doses,
link |
00:49:04.460
meaning the EPAs are able to get by with much lower dosages
link |
00:49:08.860
of SSRIs for depression relief,
link |
00:49:11.500
or in some cases to come off their SSRIs completely
link |
00:49:14.340
or avoid going on antidepressant medication.
link |
00:49:18.060
Now, of course, this is not something people should cowboy.
link |
00:49:20.280
You know, mental health issues are serious,
link |
00:49:22.080
but what other reasons,
link |
00:49:25.880
I'd love your thoughts on that, on the mental health part.
link |
00:49:27.960
And so maybe you could tell us what are some things
link |
00:49:30.440
that getting two to four grams of EPA per day
link |
00:49:33.020
is going to help with in our brain and the rest of our body?
link |
00:49:35.960
So do you know?
link |
00:49:37.880
So I actually published a paper back in 2015
link |
00:49:41.400
about the role of omega-3 and vitamin D in depression,
link |
00:49:45.360
bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and impulsive behavior.
link |
00:49:49.560
But so like within that paper,
link |
00:49:52.760
like doing background research,
link |
00:49:55.000
and this was a review article, by the way,
link |
00:49:56.200
I was just connecting dots because I love it.
link |
00:49:58.040
I'm going to grab it.
link |
00:49:59.040
I confess I don't know the paper,
link |
00:50:00.500
but I love quality reviews
link |
00:50:03.420
because the references they're in are so useful.
link |
00:50:06.080
Well, there's a huge role for inflammation,
link |
00:50:09.480
and the cause of inflammation and depression.
link |
00:50:11.600
And I think we did a short animated video on this as well
link |
00:50:15.080
like years ago back when I was publishing that work
link |
00:50:18.260
where people are injected with lipopolysaccharide.
link |
00:50:22.200
I mean, this is something that we're generating
link |
00:50:24.880
from our gut, mostly from our gut permeability,
link |
00:50:28.480
which happens a lot.
link |
00:50:30.680
Endotoxin, it's also called,
link |
00:50:32.080
it's like it's endotoxin lipopolysaccharide.
link |
00:50:34.080
It's basically the outer membrane of bacterial cells
link |
00:50:36.800
when bacteria die.
link |
00:50:38.520
So like when the immune cells in our gut
link |
00:50:40.240
come into contact with the bacteria
link |
00:50:42.160
because we drank alcohol five days in a row or whatever,
link |
00:50:47.320
we release endotoxin or something stressed us out.
link |
00:50:49.920
We release endotoxin into our body,
link |
00:50:51.980
and that causes inflammation.
link |
00:50:53.440
And so you can inject people with lipopolysaccharide
link |
00:50:56.760
and cause depressive symptoms.
link |
00:50:58.800
However, if you take those same cohort of people,
link |
00:51:01.660
give them EPA,
link |
00:51:02.760
and I think it was somewhere around two grams,
link |
00:51:04.840
and then inject them with lipopolysaccharide.
link |
00:51:06.640
You're establishing causation here, right?
link |
00:51:09.040
It totally, the depressive symptoms versus the placebo.
link |
00:51:11.480
So the placebo was saline control.
link |
00:51:13.480
So this was a placebo control
link |
00:51:15.000
because obviously it's hugely important for depression.
link |
00:51:18.040
It ameliorated the depressive symptoms
link |
00:51:20.160
that was caused by lipopolysaccharide.
link |
00:51:21.840
Amazing, and LPS, lipopolysaccharide, is no joke.
link |
00:51:25.880
Years ago, when I was working on thermal regulation,
link |
00:51:29.940
we would inject animals with LPS to induce fever.
link |
00:51:34.760
The vagus nerve registers
link |
00:51:36.200
the presence of LPS signals
link |
00:51:37.600
to these particular hypothalamic areas
link |
00:51:40.600
and cranks up body temperature,
link |
00:51:41.840
because basically it's a signal
link |
00:51:43.040
that the body is infected, right?
link |
00:51:46.500
Amazing.
link |
00:51:47.760
So I will continue with my two grams per day.
link |
00:51:51.040
Maybe I'll ramp it up to four.
link |
00:51:52.480
I'm not doing the DHA separately.
link |
00:51:55.480
There's DHA in the same supplement.
link |
00:51:58.400
Is that okay?
link |
00:51:59.240
Yes, yeah, yeah.
link |
00:52:00.080
And to kind of,
link |
00:52:02.120
boy, we've got a lot of things to hit back on,
link |
00:52:04.100
because one of your original questions was
link |
00:52:06.640
krill oil versus fish oil.
link |
00:52:08.280
Yes, it's still in the queue.
link |
00:52:09.720
DHA specifically is in phospholipid form.
link |
00:52:15.720
It's more bioavailable.
link |
00:52:17.760
So our bodies, if you're comparing exact quantity
link |
00:52:21.720
or concentration in triglyceride form
link |
00:52:24.820
versus phospholipid form,
link |
00:52:27.120
you will get more in your plasma cells,
link |
00:52:30.400
in your plasma, not plasma cell,
link |
00:52:31.520
in your plasma, with krill oil.
link |
00:52:34.280
However, krill oil supplements are so low dose.
link |
00:52:39.320
Like, I mean, good luck getting two grams
link |
00:52:43.440
of omega-3 from krill oil.
link |
00:52:45.600
And also krill oil supplements are notoriously rancid.
link |
00:52:49.160
I don't know for whatever reason.
link |
00:52:50.000
Maybe that's what made me itchy all over.
link |
00:52:52.120
I think they're just,
link |
00:52:54.280
I haven't found a good krill oil supplement.
link |
00:52:57.760
I pretty much stay away from it.
link |
00:52:59.420
I mean, if you smell it too,
link |
00:53:00.800
I mean, it's just like, it just smells rancid.
link |
00:53:04.960
So, but the thing is,
link |
00:53:06.080
and I also published a paper on this back in 2019 or,
link |
00:53:11.440
yeah, something like that,
link |
00:53:13.600
about DHA in phospholipid form getting into the brain
link |
00:53:19.520
through a different mechanism
link |
00:53:20.600
than DHA in triglyceride form.
link |
00:53:22.200
And so it's going through a transporter
link |
00:53:24.240
called the MFS-D2A transporter.
link |
00:53:26.120
And I think it's very relevant
link |
00:53:27.120
for people with an ApoE4 allele.
link |
00:53:29.260
So I kind of-
link |
00:53:30.960
With an Alzheimer's susceptibility.
link |
00:53:32.160
Right, so like 25% of the population has an allele
link |
00:53:36.080
and a gene called ApoE4.
link |
00:53:38.600
And basically it's ApoE,
link |
00:53:41.900
but the four is referred to as the bad kind of version of it.
link |
00:53:46.840
This is something in our bodies.
link |
00:53:48.640
It's also in our brain.
link |
00:53:49.840
And if people have one of these versions,
link |
00:53:52.240
if they got one from their mom or their dad,
link |
00:53:53.920
they have a twofold increased risk for Alzheimer's disease
link |
00:53:56.280
if they get two,
link |
00:53:57.320
which is much more, it's less common.
link |
00:54:00.640
I think it's like 2% of the population
link |
00:54:02.240
or something has two alleles.
link |
00:54:03.360
But they have like a 10 or 11 fold
link |
00:54:04.920
increased risk of Alzheimer's disease.
link |
00:54:06.840
So there is a role for phospholipid form,
link |
00:54:10.840
DHA in the brain,
link |
00:54:11.680
but you also make phospholipid DHA inside your body.
link |
00:54:14.200
And you can do that by taking in more triglyceride form.
link |
00:54:16.800
So two grams like the magic,
link |
00:54:19.040
two grams or more is the magic number, I think.
link |
00:54:22.880
So kind of back to like the Y for fish oil
link |
00:54:26.720
and I personally think it is one of the most powerful
link |
00:54:32.280
anti-inflammatory things, dietary lifestyle,
link |
00:54:36.440
things that we can get easily, relatively easily
link |
00:54:41.000
that is gonna powerfully modulate the way you think,
link |
00:54:45.460
the way you feel and the way you age.
link |
00:54:48.360
And a variety of different types of studies
link |
00:54:52.680
kind of led me to that conclusion.
link |
00:54:54.680
A variety of observational studies.
link |
00:54:57.320
So there's been lots of work by Dr. Bill Harris
link |
00:54:59.400
and his collaborators looking at
link |
00:55:01.640
what is called the omega-3 index.
link |
00:55:03.880
So this is actually the omega-3 level in red blood cells.
link |
00:55:07.880
So red blood cells turn over about every 120 days.
link |
00:55:10.940
So it's a long-term marker of omega-3 status.
link |
00:55:14.140
This is very different from 99.9% of any study you see
link |
00:55:19.600
or any lab that you go to
link |
00:55:22.040
to get your omega-3 levels tested.
link |
00:55:23.360
You're getting your plasma phospholipid levels tested,
link |
00:55:25.960
which is kind of like, you can think of it as,
link |
00:55:28.500
what did I eat a couple of days before?
link |
00:55:30.120
Oh, I had fish.
link |
00:55:31.440
My omega-3 levels are great,
link |
00:55:33.280
but did you eat fish like that every week?
link |
00:55:36.140
Or was it like you went out to dinner?
link |
00:55:38.740
So it's not a great biomarker for long-term omega-3 status.
link |
00:55:44.160
It's kind of like the fasting blood glucose levels
link |
00:55:47.680
versus the HbA1c, which is like a long-term marker, right,
link |
00:55:50.680
of your blood glucose levels.
link |
00:55:52.320
So the omega-3 index, he's done a variety of studies,
link |
00:55:55.800
observational studies,
link |
00:55:56.840
so for people listening, these are studies
link |
00:55:59.000
that are obviously flawed
link |
00:56:00.480
because they're not establishing causality.
link |
00:56:04.360
You're looking at people's lifestyles.
link |
00:56:08.120
But in the case of Bill Harris's work,
link |
00:56:10.700
he's measuring something.
link |
00:56:11.880
So he's measuring the omega-3 index.
link |
00:56:14.040
And he's measuring the omega-3 index in people
link |
00:56:16.600
and then looking at their mortality risk, for example,
link |
00:56:19.000
or their cardiovascular disease risk.
link |
00:56:21.200
And what he has found is that most,
link |
00:56:24.840
first of all, standard American diet
link |
00:56:27.200
has an omega-3 index of 5%.
link |
00:56:29.840
Japan, by contrast, has an omega-3 index
link |
00:56:32.920
of around 10 to 11%.
link |
00:56:35.760
Big difference there.
link |
00:56:36.800
And they also have about a five-year
link |
00:56:39.160
increased life expectancy compared to people in the US.
link |
00:56:42.560
And that's-
link |
00:56:43.380
Do you think that's mainly due
link |
00:56:44.220
to their fish intake, seafood intake?
link |
00:56:45.280
So what he showed was, I think it's a big part of it.
link |
00:56:49.720
I mean, you can't always say it's the only thing,
link |
00:56:51.680
but what he showed in his data was that in,
link |
00:56:54.680
and I think it was Framingham's study,
link |
00:56:56.880
where he looked at the omega-3 index
link |
00:56:59.280
in people that had a omega-3 index of 4% or lower,
link |
00:57:03.520
so close to what the standard American is,
link |
00:57:05.080
but a little bit lower,
link |
00:57:07.000
they had a five-year decreased life expectancy
link |
00:57:10.900
compared to people that had an 8% omega-3 index.
link |
00:57:14.600
And so, big difference there, right?
link |
00:57:17.080
Five years life expectancy.
link |
00:57:18.980
But here's the really interesting thing, Andrew.
link |
00:57:21.000
He also looked at smokers,
link |
00:57:22.840
and smokers and their omega-3 levels.
link |
00:57:25.120
And so he stratified it, right?
link |
00:57:26.240
And he found smokers that had no omega-3
link |
00:57:30.720
were like the worst of all.
link |
00:57:31.800
I mean, it was just like the worst, right?
link |
00:57:33.720
We all know smoking is bad for us
link |
00:57:35.720
and will take years off our life expectancy.
link |
00:57:38.240
But smokers that had the high level,
link |
00:57:40.480
like smokers that were taking their fish oil
link |
00:57:42.340
or eating fish or whatever it was they were doing
link |
00:57:43.840
to get them up to 8%,
link |
00:57:45.760
they had the same life expectancy
link |
00:57:47.560
as non-smokers with the low omega-3 index.
link |
00:57:50.440
Right?
link |
00:57:51.560
Wow.
link |
00:57:52.400
And that's amazing.
link |
00:57:55.840
And it's also amazing to me
link |
00:57:56.760
that people still smoke cigarettes,
link |
00:57:58.300
but I see a lot of people vaping.
link |
00:58:00.240
And I know a lot of people consume cannabis, right?
link |
00:58:05.300
Has there been any studies of specifically of vaping
link |
00:58:08.400
or people smoking marijuana and all-cause mortality?
link |
00:58:14.120
I haven't seen those.
link |
00:58:15.400
I haven't seen those.
link |
00:58:16.240
They're not motivated enough to come in as research subjects.
link |
00:58:19.120
That was, again, a poor joke.
link |
00:58:21.740
It is hard to study people marijuana use,
link |
00:58:24.720
unless I'm told by my colleagues that study this stuff,
link |
00:58:27.480
unless you offer people marijuana,
link |
00:58:29.000
in which case they'll do it.
link |
00:58:31.020
But again, they're actually not very good research subjects
link |
00:58:33.720
in all seriousness,
link |
00:58:34.560
because they are not very motivated or consistent
link |
00:58:36.320
and they forget their appointments.
link |
00:58:38.360
So that's incredible.
link |
00:58:41.480
And you mentioned that the data on pollution
link |
00:58:43.440
related to the plant compounds earlier.
link |
00:58:45.560
So it's almost like these things are, again,
link |
00:58:47.720
are acting in a reparative way.
link |
00:58:52.680
The omega-3s are, I mean, they are resolving inflammation.
link |
00:58:57.240
They're like blunting inflammation.
link |
00:58:59.320
They're doing so many different,
link |
00:59:01.640
like they affect so many different parts
link |
00:59:03.980
of the inflammatory pathway,
link |
00:59:05.080
which is, I think it plays a huge role in the way we age,
link |
00:59:09.000
the way our brain ages, the way we feel, our mood,
link |
00:59:11.020
just our joints, all that.
link |
00:59:12.880
And so it's amazing, but it's not...
link |
00:59:17.000
I love fish oil.
link |
00:59:18.400
I feel better when I take it.
link |
00:59:19.720
I try to eat some fatty fish a couple of times a week.
link |
00:59:23.800
I do want to just touch on food sources for a moment.
link |
00:59:27.480
First of all, are there plants that are rich in omega-3s?
link |
00:59:31.680
And second, I have some friends who are really into meat.
link |
00:59:36.500
And I like meat a lot.
link |
00:59:38.480
My dad's Argentine, but I don't eat very much of it.
link |
00:59:40.860
I try and eat high quality meats in relatively limited
link |
00:59:43.800
amounts, but I do eat pretty often.
link |
00:59:46.480
But I've been told by these sources
link |
00:59:50.840
of questionable authority,
link |
00:59:52.560
that if an animal grazes on really good grasses,
link |
00:59:55.480
for instance, that the meat can contain a lot of omega-3s,
link |
00:59:59.280
which in principle makes sense based on this omega-3 index.
link |
01:00:02.520
Cause you're telling me that a lot of it,
link |
01:00:03.760
this omega-3 is sequestered into the red blood cells.
link |
01:00:06.600
So if I'm eating high quality grass fed meat
link |
01:00:09.240
and the grasses had omega-3s,
link |
01:00:11.800
do my steaks have omega-3s or no?
link |
01:00:14.780
So there was a study published that compared
link |
01:00:17.880
conventional meat.
link |
01:00:19.680
So meat that is, that animals are fed, you know,
link |
01:00:23.000
corn or soy or whatever it is.
link |
01:00:25.200
Which is terrible, but for animals and people,
link |
01:00:27.840
as far as I can tell, I'm sure I'll get some attacks,
link |
01:00:31.700
but that's okay.
link |
01:00:32.540
I won't read those comments.
link |
01:00:33.680
The, again, a joke, I read all the comments,
link |
01:00:37.120
but it seems to me that these animals have to get,
link |
01:00:42.080
either be taking fish oil or eat plants
link |
01:00:45.240
that are very rich in omega-3s in order for the meat
link |
01:00:48.340
to actually contain sufficient omega-3s.
link |
01:00:50.480
So the meat, comparing the conventional meat
link |
01:00:52.960
to like the grass fed or pasture raised cows or cattle,
link |
01:00:59.200
there were higher levels of alpha linoleic acid.
link |
01:01:03.080
And ALA is, it can be converted into EPA and DHA.
link |
01:01:09.400
But the conversion is very inefficient
link |
01:01:13.180
and very dependent on a variety of factors,
link |
01:01:15.880
including genetics.
link |
01:01:17.640
Genetics, a huge, you know, regulator.
link |
01:01:20.640
Like some people can do it much better.
link |
01:01:23.180
Others, like you're getting like 5% of conversion to EPA.
link |
01:01:27.940
Estrogen is a major regulator of making that more efficient
link |
01:01:32.800
and it makes sense because pregnancy,
link |
01:01:35.280
when your estrogen just goes through the roof,
link |
01:01:37.480
I mean, these omega-3 fatty acids
link |
01:01:39.880
play a very important role in brain development.
link |
01:01:42.020
So you're, you know, women are supposed to be converting
link |
01:01:46.040
any ALA they can into the longer chain
link |
01:01:49.040
omega-3 fatty acids, right?
link |
01:01:50.400
So estrogen does affect that.
link |
01:01:53.400
But I would say plant sources,
link |
01:01:55.200
so if you're looking for the ALA,
link |
01:01:57.960
plant sources would be walnuts, flax seeds,
link |
01:02:01.440
those are probably the highest.
link |
01:02:03.120
But if a person is a vegan or a vegetarian,
link |
01:02:06.880
their best bet is to actually get microalgae oil.
link |
01:02:10.200
And you can supplement with microalgae oil
link |
01:02:12.120
because microalgae do, they do make the DHA.
link |
01:02:16.800
And so that would be a better source
link |
01:02:20.720
for people that are vegetarian and vegan
link |
01:02:23.960
rather than doing the flax seed oil.
link |
01:02:26.360
Because that conversion inefficiency,
link |
01:02:28.160
you know, the enzymes that convert ALA into EPA and DHA,
link |
01:02:32.280
again, it's inefficient.
link |
01:02:33.920
And then for people that eat fish, sardines, you said?
link |
01:02:38.240
Salmon.
link |
01:02:39.080
Salmon, and you have to eat the skin, as I understand.
link |
01:02:42.320
You don't have to, but it's good.
link |
01:02:44.080
It's rich with the oil.
link |
01:02:45.520
Yeah, and the reason I say,
link |
01:02:47.440
like, I think the best would be wild Alaskan salmon
link |
01:02:52.160
versus the farm-raised because the farm-raised,
link |
01:02:54.120
again, they're feeding them, they're feeding them corn,
link |
01:02:57.280
they're feeding them like green and stuff.
link |
01:02:59.120
And then they give them astaxanthin.
link |
01:03:00.720
So astaxanthin is a carotenoid.
link |
01:03:02.840
It's the carotenoid that's in things like
link |
01:03:04.640
krill crustaceans that make their red pigment.
link |
01:03:07.160
Yeah, it's also being used now as a supplement
link |
01:03:09.960
and there's a prescription form
link |
01:03:12.000
to try and rescue some age-related vision loss
link |
01:03:15.200
because of the role of the vitamin A pathway
link |
01:03:18.480
in photoreceptors.
link |
01:03:20.080
Yeah, well, you know, actually the carotenoids themselves,
link |
01:03:22.520
so like luteinine, zeaxanthin,
link |
01:03:23.800
they're really good at sequestering singlet oxygen,
link |
01:03:26.720
which is some damaging, right?
link |
01:03:29.000
Yeah, as we age, because the retinal cells,
link |
01:03:33.120
cells of the eye are so metabolically active,
link |
01:03:35.240
they accumulate a lot of reactive oxygen species
link |
01:03:38.200
and mitochondrial repair and limiting reactive oxygen species
link |
01:03:43.120
is a major theme of trying to rescue vision.
link |
01:03:46.680
I think that's a whole other podcast and story.
link |
01:03:49.120
There's some really interesting data now
link |
01:03:50.560
on the use of red light to try and trigger these pathways.
link |
01:03:53.200
I've seen some.
link |
01:03:54.240
That's my good friend of many years
link |
01:03:56.640
and amazing scientist Glenn Jeffrey's lab
link |
01:03:58.480
at the University College London.
link |
01:04:00.640
We should talk about that at some point, if not today.
link |
01:04:02.480
I saw that study like 2020, was it?
link |
01:04:04.320
Now they have a second study.
link |
01:04:05.160
Oh, do they?
link |
01:04:06.000
Yeah, it's looking real.
link |
01:04:07.560
I mean, you know, they're cautious.
link |
01:04:09.480
They're appropriately British and cautious about it.
link |
01:04:12.320
You know, I always joke
link |
01:04:13.800
if those studies had been done over here,
link |
01:04:15.120
everyone would already know about it.
link |
01:04:16.880
Glenn is a very conservative guy,
link |
01:04:19.040
but they've done this stuff now in pigs and rodent models
link |
01:04:22.080
and now also two studies in humans.
link |
01:04:23.760
It's looking pretty interesting.
link |
01:04:25.760
So sardines, but also anchovies.
link |
01:04:29.440
I mean, by the way,
link |
01:04:30.440
I hate all the food items that I'm describing.
link |
01:04:32.480
I can barely tolerate salmon.
link |
01:04:34.200
I don't like fish at all.
link |
01:04:35.520
Actually, I like live fish.
link |
01:04:37.000
I had fish tanks when I was a kid.
link |
01:04:38.440
I just don't.
link |
01:04:39.280
No, I find fish, unless it's in sushi form,
link |
01:04:41.360
I find it absolutely repulsive.
link |
01:04:43.640
And I don't know why.
link |
01:04:44.480
I probably have some mutation.
link |
01:04:45.640
So raw fish is actually higher in mercury than cooked.
link |
01:04:48.920
Okay, well, that's good.
link |
01:04:49.760
I don't really like sushi that much anyway.
link |
01:04:52.240
You're giving me great reasons to not eat fish,
link |
01:04:54.680
but except I should eat these other fish sources
link |
01:04:56.840
or supplement more heavily.
link |
01:04:58.160
That's the message I'm getting.
link |
01:04:59.320
I eat sardines like every day.
link |
01:05:01.560
My like first meal almost is like a can of sardines
link |
01:05:04.360
and an avocado with like-
link |
01:05:05.760
Avocado is good.
link |
01:05:07.080
Yeah, with a little bit of lemon
link |
01:05:08.200
and then some little hot sauce, like, you know.
link |
01:05:10.760
Does avocado have omega-3s?
link |
01:05:12.440
Avocado is very good in monounsaturated fat.
link |
01:05:15.680
It's not really high in polyunsaturated fat.
link |
01:05:17.360
Omega-3 really, I mean, it's either the DHA and EPA
link |
01:05:21.920
that's in the marine sources fish
link |
01:05:24.160
or it's the plant ALA source,
link |
01:05:26.080
which is like the flaxseed or the walnuts, so.
link |
01:05:29.560
It's rough.
link |
01:05:30.400
I mean, all these companies now
link |
01:05:32.320
are making these plant-based products that taste like meat.
link |
01:05:37.200
My wish is that they would just make a fish
link |
01:05:39.080
that tastes like a steak, but that's-
link |
01:05:41.080
The fish come out albino, the ones that they farm raise
link |
01:05:43.320
because they don't eat any of the-
link |
01:05:45.360
I'm joking.
link |
01:05:46.200
I don't want a genetically modified fish
link |
01:05:48.120
that tastes like a steak.
link |
01:05:49.040
Although, you know, I love the taste of steak.
link |
01:05:51.480
The point here is that if you don't,
link |
01:05:53.280
if one doesn't see themselves
link |
01:05:56.040
regularly consuming these fish sources of omega-3s,
link |
01:06:01.760
it seems to me that the only way to really get them
link |
01:06:04.600
is from supplementation.
link |
01:06:07.200
And supplementation is a good way to get a high dose
link |
01:06:10.960
and to get back to your dose point.
link |
01:06:13.320
There was a couple of studies that basically, you know,
link |
01:06:18.400
I think there was some way they showed that people
link |
01:06:20.560
that are in the 4% omega-3 index range,
link |
01:06:23.560
in order to get to the 8%, right,
link |
01:06:25.200
the five-year increased life expectancy
link |
01:06:27.520
if we're comparing the two groups,
link |
01:06:29.320
was to supplement with at least two grams.
link |
01:06:31.960
It was about two grams a day.
link |
01:06:33.600
And I think it was a little bit less
link |
01:06:35.760
if it was triglyceride form,
link |
01:06:36.680
but I think two grams is a good, safe number.
link |
01:06:39.880
So most Americans that are not eating a lot of fish
link |
01:06:43.480
and they're not supplementing
link |
01:06:44.320
are probably around a 4% to 5% omega-3 index.
link |
01:06:47.400
And to get to the 8%,
link |
01:06:48.960
and I think that's a good empirical way
link |
01:06:52.680
of thinking about it, right?
link |
01:06:53.760
Okay, well, I want to get to that 8%.
link |
01:06:55.120
By the way, I'm almost 16% omega-3 index.
link |
01:06:57.600
Yeah, I was going to ask about testing.
link |
01:06:59.920
So where can somebody measure,
link |
01:07:03.160
where and how can somebody measure their omega-3 index?
link |
01:07:05.960
Which again, just to remind people,
link |
01:07:07.120
is essentially the percentage of omega-3s
link |
01:07:09.640
that you have in your blood with the caveat
link |
01:07:12.960
that the omega-3 index will be heavily biased
link |
01:07:16.760
by what you ate in the previous days.
link |
01:07:18.720
Not the omega-3 index.
link |
01:07:19.960
Okay, so the omega-3-
link |
01:07:20.800
Sorry, I misunderstood.
link |
01:07:21.640
I thought you said in red blood cells.
link |
01:07:22.800
If I ate salmon two days ago,
link |
01:07:24.160
my omega-3 index is going to go up.
link |
01:07:25.800
No, that was plasma.
link |
01:07:27.080
I misunderstood.
link |
01:07:28.240
So most people are measuring,
link |
01:07:30.120
like if you look at a lot of studies,
link |
01:07:31.700
and honestly, Andrew,
link |
01:07:32.540
I think a lot of the reason for conflicting data
link |
01:07:35.320
is because people are measuring plasma omega-3 levels.
link |
01:07:39.560
Okay.
link |
01:07:40.400
The phospholipids, it's in a phospholipid, right?
link |
01:07:41.880
So your phospholipids are carrying things.
link |
01:07:44.280
These are lipoproteins.
link |
01:07:45.720
They're carrying things like omega-3
link |
01:07:47.460
and triglycerides and stuff and shuttling them around.
link |
01:07:49.400
So the omega-3 index is actually in the red blood cells,
link |
01:07:53.800
and red blood cells take 120 days to turn over.
link |
01:07:56.880
So if you're going to do a baseline test,
link |
01:07:59.760
if you want to know before supplementing
link |
01:08:01.640
what your level is,
link |
01:08:02.720
you have to wait 120 days before doing the second test
link |
01:08:06.160
after supplementing to know how much you went up,
link |
01:08:08.240
because that's how long it takes
link |
01:08:10.640
for your red blood cell to turn over.
link |
01:08:12.440
So the omega-3 index, Bill Harris has a company
link |
01:08:17.240
that he co-founded.
link |
01:08:19.440
It's called Omega Quant,
link |
01:08:21.400
and they measure the omega-3 index.
link |
01:08:23.440
They have a variety of different index tests.
link |
01:08:25.840
You can do a basic one or a little more advanced.
link |
01:08:27.680
This is from a blood draw.
link |
01:08:28.640
It is.
link |
01:08:29.480
It's a little blood spot thing, yeah.
link |
01:08:31.200
And he uses money to funnel back into doing lipid research.
link |
01:08:35.200
He's out there doing all sorts of interesting studies
link |
01:08:37.760
on omega-3s.
link |
01:08:38.600
It's great.
link |
01:08:39.420
But the omega-3 index is great.
link |
01:08:41.320
I think that, honestly, more people and more researchers
link |
01:08:45.400
should be using it, because the conflicting data,
link |
01:08:49.600
it always comes down to what we're measuring,
link |
01:08:52.480
the sensitivity of it.
link |
01:08:54.760
Are we even measuring anything?
link |
01:08:56.140
So you're giving someone 500 milligrams of DHA,
link |
01:09:00.000
and you don't see any effect.
link |
01:09:01.000
Well, did you measure what their levels were,
link |
01:09:02.840
and did you measure the omega-3 index?
link |
01:09:05.840
There's all sorts of problems
link |
01:09:07.200
with randomized controlled trials,
link |
01:09:09.440
and I think that we need to,
link |
01:09:12.280
as scientists, we need to come together
link |
01:09:14.160
and make some progress.
link |
01:09:16.040
I mean, let's all talk to each other.
link |
01:09:18.360
Let's figure things out.
link |
01:09:20.520
This test is out there.
link |
01:09:22.400
It should be used.
link |
01:09:23.360
It should be used not just by Bill's group,
link |
01:09:25.120
but like everyone.
link |
01:09:26.280
Yeah, well, and I'm learning so much from you,
link |
01:09:29.320
and I agree we need more collaboration.
link |
01:09:32.020
I've always enjoyed really fruitful collaborations
link |
01:09:34.500
in my lab at Stanford,
link |
01:09:35.640
and collaborating is just so much more fun.
link |
01:09:37.960
Online, there seems to be a bias more towards creating silos
link |
01:09:41.640
as opposed to bridges,
link |
01:09:43.800
but I appreciate that you bring up the need
link |
01:09:46.920
for more collaboration,
link |
01:09:47.840
and knowing which measures are best,
link |
01:09:50.040
and in this case, now I'll thank you for the clarification.
link |
01:09:52.380
I understand this omega-3 index is going to be best.
link |
01:09:54.920
You mentioned you, so basically when now I look at you,
link |
01:09:57.000
I think you are 16% omega-3.
link |
01:09:59.120
And dolphins are 19%.
link |
01:10:00.760
I'm almost-
link |
01:10:01.600
Is that your goal?
link |
01:10:02.420
You're trying to get there?
link |
01:10:03.260
It is.
link |
01:10:04.100
To do the interesting.
link |
01:10:06.760
Actually, they should probably do something
link |
01:10:07.880
where you're trying to achieve the omega-3 ratio
link |
01:10:10.960
of your favorite species.
link |
01:10:14.280
Now that we've covered a bit of how to get these things
link |
01:10:17.060
into one system, depending on what one eats, et cetera,
link |
01:10:20.040
and some of the better measurements,
link |
01:10:22.920
how is omega-3 and some of these other related lipids,
link |
01:10:27.540
how are they having these positive effects?
link |
01:10:29.300
In my mind, and this is incredibly elementary,
link |
01:10:33.120
but my understanding is that at some level,
link |
01:10:35.060
they're making platelets more slippery.
link |
01:10:37.060
Is that true or not?
link |
01:10:38.060
I hope, I'm happy to be wrong.
link |
01:10:40.440
How is it possibly impacting my mood?
link |
01:10:43.040
Is it through the synthesis of membrane on neurons
link |
01:10:45.840
that allows neurons to release more transmitter,
link |
01:10:48.520
like serotonin and dopamine?
link |
01:10:50.480
What are some of the purported, reported,
link |
01:10:53.680
and known mechanisms?
link |
01:10:55.520
I think some of the most well-known mechanisms
link |
01:10:59.640
do have to do with the omega-3 fatty acids
link |
01:11:02.760
being very powerful regulators of the inflammatory process
link |
01:11:07.520
in some way, shape, or form,
link |
01:11:09.160
whether that has to do with resolvins that are produced.
link |
01:11:11.920
So from the metabolites of like DHA, for example,
link |
01:11:16.080
resolvins play a role in resolving inflammation.
link |
01:11:19.720
Like you want your inflammatory response to be activated
link |
01:11:22.400
when it's supposed to be,
link |
01:11:23.640
but you want to resolve that inflammation
link |
01:11:25.240
and the inflammatory response in a timely manner, right?
link |
01:11:29.040
And resolvins help do that.
link |
01:11:30.660
And so resolvins are one.
link |
01:11:32.720
And then there's these specialized
link |
01:11:34.760
pro-mediating molecules, the SPMs,
link |
01:11:36.840
that also help resolve the inflammation.
link |
01:11:39.480
There's, like you mentioned,
link |
01:11:40.520
the leukotrienes and prostaglandins,
link |
01:11:42.200
and these things are being affected by EPA,
link |
01:11:44.080
and they do affect platelets and platelet aggregation,
link |
01:11:47.360
and they do affect that whole pathway as well.
link |
01:11:50.840
And so there's just,
link |
01:11:52.200
and there's, you know,
link |
01:11:53.040
I think there's just so many different ways and inputs.
link |
01:11:57.220
And so when we talk about inflammation,
link |
01:11:59.000
honestly, it's a big general term,
link |
01:12:01.640
but you're talking about,
link |
01:12:02.800
when you're talking about serotonin release,
link |
01:12:05.340
you know, at the level of neurons,
link |
01:12:07.200
you know, we know that these inflammatory molecules
link |
01:12:09.280
cross the blood-brain barrier.
link |
01:12:10.480
And I just mentioned ago about injecting people
link |
01:12:12.360
with lipopolysaccharide and causing depressive symptoms.
link |
01:12:16.000
You know, it's known that omega-3,
link |
01:12:19.400
actually, specifically EPA,
link |
01:12:21.560
is able to help serotonin,
link |
01:12:24.000
inflammation inhibits the release of serotonin.
link |
01:12:26.680
And so EPA is actually able to blunt inflammatory responses,
link |
01:12:31.400
along with DHA as well.
link |
01:12:32.520
DHA does that through resolvins and stuff,
link |
01:12:34.440
and this then helps more serotonin be released
link |
01:12:37.520
because you're not having so much inflammation
link |
01:12:40.180
getting into the brain
link |
01:12:41.320
and affecting serotonin release, right?
link |
01:12:43.200
That's one mechanism.
link |
01:12:44.080
And then another would be,
link |
01:12:45.000
well, DHA itself has been shown,
link |
01:12:46.840
it's a very important fatty acid
link |
01:12:49.640
that makes up cell membranes, many cell membranes,
link |
01:12:51.640
including in our neurons.
link |
01:12:53.100
And as you very well know, Andrew,
link |
01:12:55.120
the structure and function of receptors, of transporters,
link |
01:12:58.740
these membrane-bound proteins on the surface of our cells,
link |
01:13:02.680
including neurons, are affected by the membrane fluidity,
link |
01:13:06.600
like how rigid and how fluid the cell membrane is.
link |
01:13:10.880
And DHA plays a role in that.
link |
01:13:12.800
And so, for example, in animal studies,
link |
01:13:14.680
if you make an animal deficient in DHA,
link |
01:13:17.280
their serotonin receptors, dopamine receptors,
link |
01:13:20.000
they're affected because the structure of them is affected
link |
01:13:23.600
through the fluidity of the membrane.
link |
01:13:25.960
And so I think that's another mechanism.
link |
01:13:29.320
And I'm talking sort of general
link |
01:13:31.320
because I'm not a neuroscientist.
link |
01:13:32.800
No, but it makes perfect sense.
link |
01:13:33.880
I mean, we know, for instance, neuroplasticity,
link |
01:13:37.200
and almost always, involves the recruitment
link |
01:13:40.520
of more receptors or an improvement
link |
01:13:42.860
in some feature of receptors to neurotransmitters,
link |
01:13:46.620
and they literally move laterally in the membrane.
link |
01:13:49.280
They kind of float around like little rafts.
link |
01:13:50.960
Sometimes they are, in fact, in lipid rafts.
link |
01:13:53.020
And so it makes perfect sense that these molecules like DHA,
link |
01:13:56.300
which are part of the structural fat of the neuron,
link |
01:13:58.920
because of course the outsides of neurons
link |
01:14:00.480
are basically fat,
link |
01:14:01.520
not just the myelin that people have heard of,
link |
01:14:03.480
but the actual membranes, that getting that right,
link |
01:14:07.920
you wouldn't want it as rigid as concrete,
link |
01:14:09.680
but you wouldn't want it as soft as,
link |
01:14:12.600
need to come up with something here.
link |
01:14:14.040
What's that gooey stuff that kids play with?
link |
01:14:15.920
It's like that goo.
link |
01:14:17.200
Anyway, it's disgusting,
link |
01:14:19.800
and it's too soft to be a membrane for a neuron.
link |
01:14:22.000
That's what we know.
link |
01:14:22.840
Someone put it in the comments
link |
01:14:24.880
and tell me what that disgusting gooey stuff is.
link |
01:14:27.360
You don't want your neurons to be that gooey,
link |
01:14:29.640
and yet you don't want them to be like concrete either.
link |
01:14:31.800
It's a balance.
link |
01:14:32.640
It's a balance.
link |
01:14:34.200
And in mentioning DHA,
link |
01:14:37.040
I'm just going to realize I'm backtracking,
link |
01:14:38.800
but I want to make sure that we close
link |
01:14:40.060
all the hatches for people.
link |
01:14:42.040
We talked a lot about EPA,
link |
01:14:44.480
but are food sources of DHA
link |
01:14:48.520
that you find particularly attractive
link |
01:14:51.040
either by taste or by potency for DHA,
link |
01:14:53.720
what are just a few that we could throw out?
link |
01:14:55.880
Because I am aware that there are supplements
link |
01:14:58.560
where you can get a nice ratio of EPA to DHA,
link |
01:15:00.960
or you take them separately as you do.
link |
01:15:02.680
But if I want to make sure that I'm getting enough DHA,
link |
01:15:05.000
what do I need to be sure I'm eating on a regular basis?
link |
01:15:07.240
Well, the fish is packaging the DHA and EPA in the ratio.
link |
01:15:11.200
But I also do eat salmon roe,
link |
01:15:14.300
which is very salty,
link |
01:15:16.340
and it's a really high source
link |
01:15:18.720
of the phosphatidylcholine DHA that we talked about.
link |
01:15:22.480
So this is fish eggs?
link |
01:15:23.440
It is.
link |
01:15:24.280
Yeah.
link |
01:15:25.100
And actually-
link |
01:15:25.940
That I like for some reason.
link |
01:15:26.760
Oh, do you?
link |
01:15:27.600
Yeah, so I'm discovering something about myself.
link |
01:15:30.400
This was not meant to be nutritional psychotherapy,
link |
01:15:33.240
but you're doing that for me anyway.
link |
01:15:34.880
I'm discovering that, yeah, I like eating embryonic fish.
link |
01:15:37.560
I just don't like eating the actual fish.
link |
01:15:39.520
Okay, well.
link |
01:15:40.560
Okay, so fish eggs are okay.
link |
01:15:42.720
So caviar, basically.
link |
01:15:43.680
Caviar, yes.
link |
01:15:44.520
And that's a good source of the phospholipid form.
link |
01:15:47.040
And I was consuming that a lot
link |
01:15:48.420
because I wanted to get the phospholipid form.
link |
01:15:51.160
So, and it's actually really good.
link |
01:15:52.480
There's been some animal studies
link |
01:15:53.760
and piglets and rodents as well
link |
01:15:55.840
showing that consuming phospholipid DHA
link |
01:16:01.200
during fetal brain development
link |
01:16:02.960
like gets like 10 times more DHA in the brain.
link |
01:16:06.080
Again, it's-
link |
01:16:07.180
Makes sense based on fetal development.
link |
01:16:09.840
So do I need to buy Beluga caviar?
link |
01:16:13.440
Stuff can get pretty expensive at $200 a tin.
link |
01:16:15.280
I don't think you need to, yeah.
link |
01:16:17.040
I think it's a matter of preference.
link |
01:16:20.120
And if you're supplementing
link |
01:16:22.320
with your two to four grams of fish oil,
link |
01:16:25.260
I mean, you're going to get phospholipid form anyway
link |
01:16:28.400
because your body's going to make it.
link |
01:16:29.560
Okay, I've seen some containers
link |
01:16:31.100
of what I assume to be quality fish eggs
link |
01:16:34.120
that are not at the caviar level
link |
01:16:36.600
that you can find in the better grocery stores
link |
01:16:38.680
that aren't super expensive.
link |
01:16:40.360
I wouldn't dip as low as to go eat, for instance,
link |
01:16:42.520
like fishing bait.
link |
01:16:44.360
Like when we were kids, we used to go fishing
link |
01:16:45.800
and you'd put the fish egg on the thing.
link |
01:16:47.120
That's probably not good.
link |
01:16:48.280
Although it's good enough for the fish, apparently.
link |
01:16:50.120
Okay, only half joking here, folks.
link |
01:16:52.520
I'm just trying to protect you from yourselves.
link |
01:16:54.500
Don't get any crazy ideas about eating fishing bait.
link |
01:16:57.960
Okay, so that's great to know.
link |
01:17:00.560
So we have these plant-based compounds.
link |
01:17:02.320
We have the omega-3s, so EPA, DHA.
link |
01:17:04.840
And then you mentioned there's a third category.
link |
01:17:07.180
What would you place in your third category
link |
01:17:09.200
of foods or supplement-based nutrients
link |
01:17:14.200
that our health, brain and or body health
link |
01:17:17.800
can really benefit from?
link |
01:17:19.040
I mean, I think the most obvious would be vitamin D,
link |
01:17:21.560
which is actually, as you know, a steroid hormone
link |
01:17:24.760
that we produce when we're in the sun.
link |
01:17:28.000
Depending on the time of year, we can make it in our skin.
link |
01:17:31.720
And depending on how much melanin we have in our skin
link |
01:17:34.160
or whether or not we're wearing sunscreen
link |
01:17:35.440
or how old we are, there's a sliding scale
link |
01:17:39.240
on how efficient that process is.
link |
01:17:41.120
And as I understand, there's an inverse relationship
link |
01:17:43.520
where the darker your skin is naturally,
link |
01:17:48.240
the more vitamin D you need to consume.
link |
01:17:50.440
Is that right?
link |
01:17:51.320
Well, the darker your skin is, the harder it is.
link |
01:17:54.560
So there was a study out of the University of Chicago,
link |
01:17:56.920
this was several years ago, where they looked
link |
01:17:58.680
at African Americans and compared African Americans
link |
01:18:03.000
to Caucasians with light skin, fair skin,
link |
01:18:05.600
and how well they could make vitamin D from sun exposure
link |
01:18:09.060
and how long they had to be in the sun
link |
01:18:11.800
to make X amount, right?
link |
01:18:13.400
And it turns out that African Americans
link |
01:18:15.680
with darker pigmentation, which protects them
link |
01:18:17.920
from the burning rays of the sun, it's a natural sunscreen,
link |
01:18:20.640
had to stay in the sun like six times as long
link |
01:18:23.880
as someone with none of that natural sunscreen.
link |
01:18:26.960
So I think the take home there is a lot of people
link |
01:18:32.200
with darker skin living in sub-Saharan Africa
link |
01:18:34.680
or people living in India with darker skin
link |
01:18:37.200
or in the Philippines, these equatorial regions
link |
01:18:39.740
where you tend to see darker skin
link |
01:18:42.680
because it's protection from the burning rays of sun.
link |
01:18:44.400
And adaptation.
link |
01:18:45.240
They are in the sun war.
link |
01:18:46.560
Right, yeah.
link |
01:18:47.400
And they're getting more vitamin D.
link |
01:18:48.880
But people that maybe moved to the United States
link |
01:18:51.240
to like Minnesota or in a place where UVB radiation
link |
01:18:55.640
isn't getting to the atmosphere 12 months out of the year,
link |
01:18:58.920
it's only getting there four months, for example.
link |
01:19:02.000
Or even living in our modern day society
link |
01:19:03.480
where people just don't go outside anymore.
link |
01:19:04.960
I mean, we're inside, we're at our laptops in school,
link |
01:19:07.800
we're at work, we're in our cubicle, whatever.
link |
01:19:09.520
So supplementation does play a major role,
link |
01:19:12.400
not only for people with darker skin
link |
01:19:15.040
that aren't outside all the time, but for everyone.
link |
01:19:17.120
70% of the U.S. population has inadequate vitamin D levels.
link |
01:19:21.800
70 of the whole U.S.
link |
01:19:24.360
So this is everyone.
link |
01:19:25.840
And so I think that insufficient levels defined
link |
01:19:29.360
as less than 30 nanograms per milliliter,
link |
01:19:33.760
and that's sort of defined by the endocrine society
link |
01:19:38.160
looking at a lot of different aggregate studies
link |
01:19:41.480
and all-cause mortality, for example.
link |
01:19:43.960
There's been a lot of different meta-analyses
link |
01:19:46.160
of all-cause mortality studies
link |
01:19:47.680
where vitamin D levels really seem to be ideal
link |
01:19:51.360
between 40 to 60 nanograms per milliliter.
link |
01:19:54.840
And so in order to get to that level,
link |
01:19:57.960
if you are not outside all the time,
link |
01:20:01.240
live in Southern California where you're always outside
link |
01:20:03.760
without sunscreen on, I always wear sunscreen
link |
01:20:05.800
because I'm trying to protect my skin
link |
01:20:07.640
from so many wrinkles and stuff, right?
link |
01:20:09.600
But also skin cancer is somewhat of an issue as well.
link |
01:20:13.160
So basically the point is that vitamin D
link |
01:20:16.680
is a steroid hormone,
link |
01:20:17.520
meaning it actually binds to a receptor
link |
01:20:21.600
and another receptor dimerizes with it,
link |
01:20:24.840
the retinoid receptor.
link |
01:20:26.240
And that complex goes into the nucleus of a cell
link |
01:20:29.880
where your DNA is, and it recognizes little sequences
link |
01:20:33.840
of DNA called vitamin D response elements,
link |
01:20:36.000
they're called VDREs.
link |
01:20:37.440
They're specific sequences of DNA
link |
01:20:39.480
that this complex, bound to the vitamin D receptor,
link |
01:20:42.920
goes inside and recognizes
link |
01:20:44.480
and turns on a whole host of genes,
link |
01:20:46.560
turns off a whole host of genes.
link |
01:20:47.880
I mean, this is important stuff.
link |
01:20:51.280
Like imagine 70% of the population
link |
01:20:53.760
having insufficient testosterone, right?
link |
01:20:56.400
It's a steroid hormone.
link |
01:20:57.960
We might be headed there, but probably not.
link |
01:21:01.000
No, I think that its names are very important.
link |
01:21:04.040
And I think that one of the issues is that vitamin D
link |
01:21:07.120
is called vitamin D.
link |
01:21:09.360
It's not called DHEA or variant, blah, blah, blah.
link |
01:21:13.800
It doesn't sound like a hormone.
link |
01:21:15.320
I also, I'm glad that you're mentioning skin
link |
01:21:18.120
as the major kind of interface
link |
01:21:20.200
between the environment and vitamin D synthesis,
link |
01:21:22.560
because a lot of people think of skin
link |
01:21:24.400
as just a protective sheath around us
link |
01:21:26.920
or something to adorn ourselves with earrings
link |
01:21:28.840
or tattoos or whatever.
link |
01:21:30.200
But skin obviously serves those roles,
link |
01:21:32.480
but the skin is an endocrine organ.
link |
01:21:35.000
It has the capacity to make things that impact hormones
link |
01:21:38.200
and to make hormones.
link |
01:21:39.720
There's this beautiful study out this last year
link |
01:21:42.080
where this took place over in Israel
link |
01:21:44.240
where they had people get outside
link |
01:21:45.640
for 20 or 30 minutes a day, three times a week,
link |
01:21:49.080
exposing a culturally acceptable,
link |
01:21:52.440
yet substantial amount of their skin during that time
link |
01:21:56.000
and saw big increases in testosterone and estrogen.
link |
01:21:59.560
And this is through a keratinocyte linked pathway
link |
01:22:02.000
involving P53.
link |
01:22:03.840
This was done in humans,
link |
01:22:04.720
but they did some knockout studies in parallel.
link |
01:22:06.400
And what this study told me or reminded me
link |
01:22:08.400
is that skin is an endocrine organ.
link |
01:22:09.920
So the idea that sun could trigger the activation
link |
01:22:12.440
of a production of a hormone is really interesting
link |
01:22:16.560
and makes total sense.
link |
01:22:17.800
So when vitamin D gets into cells
link |
01:22:20.200
and it's binding to these VDREs,
link |
01:22:24.960
what sorts of things are they triggering?
link |
01:22:27.800
So like for testosterone,
link |
01:22:28.840
we know it's going to trigger protein synthesis,
link |
01:22:30.600
muscle growth, tendon strength, et cetera.
link |
01:22:32.320
With estrogen, it's going to be keep your neurons going,
link |
01:22:35.360
your joints feeling good.
link |
01:22:36.720
I always remind people that, by the way,
link |
01:22:39.000
because guys always seem to want to increase
link |
01:22:41.360
their testosterone and reduce their estrogen.
link |
01:22:43.080
Just remind people, if you reduce your estrogen, guys,
link |
01:22:45.800
your libido will plummet to near zero.
link |
01:22:47.800
Don't crush your estrogen.
link |
01:22:49.620
It'll also make you stupid.
link |
01:22:52.080
If you're not already stupid, it will make you stupid.
link |
01:22:55.760
So estrogen is vitally important for males and females.
link |
01:22:58.900
When vitamin D gets into cells,
link |
01:23:01.480
what sorts of things is it stimulating?
link |
01:23:03.920
Okay, so first of all, it's regulating more than 5%
link |
01:23:07.000
of the protein-encoded human genome.
link |
01:23:09.120
More than, and this was, I say more than
link |
01:23:11.680
because when I was looking at this data really in depth
link |
01:23:15.080
back in, starting in 2012 to 2014, it was that,
link |
01:23:21.200
and then it's now grown.
link |
01:23:22.800
But one of the important things that you'll find interesting
link |
01:23:25.800
that I published on back in 2014
link |
01:23:27.420
was that I'd gone through this big published database
link |
01:23:32.420
where someone had published all these genes
link |
01:23:34.760
they found VDREs in.
link |
01:23:36.520
And basically I found that tryptophan hydroxylase one
link |
01:23:42.220
and tryptophan hydroxylase two was on there.
link |
01:23:44.920
And so then I started looking at the sequence
link |
01:23:46.320
and I was doing some in silico work,
link |
01:23:48.120
and it turns out that the VDREs
link |
01:23:51.000
and tryptophan hydroxylase two,
link |
01:23:52.960
so for people listening, tryptophan hydroxylase
link |
01:23:56.840
is an enzyme that converts tryptophan into serotonin.
link |
01:24:00.880
So tryptophan is an amino acid that we get from our food.
link |
01:24:05.080
You convert tryptophan into serotonin in the gut,
link |
01:24:09.520
but you also do it in the brain.
link |
01:24:11.300
However, serotonin does not cross the blood-brain barrier.
link |
01:24:13.880
So tryptophan has to get into your brain
link |
01:24:16.480
and then you have to convert it to serotonin in your brain.
link |
01:24:19.000
Well, the enzyme that does that in your brain
link |
01:24:21.640
is called tryptophan hydroxylase two,
link |
01:24:23.720
and it's activated by vitamin D.
link |
01:24:26.720
The one in the gut is actually tryptophan hydroxylase one.
link |
01:24:30.600
Some of my published work hypothesized
link |
01:24:33.400
that it might actually be repressed by vitamin D
link |
01:24:35.840
because it has a sequence.
link |
01:24:37.700
The sequence itself, this 12-nucleotide sequence,
link |
01:24:41.480
it can determine to some degree
link |
01:24:44.000
whether it's gonna be activated or turned off.
link |
01:24:45.520
And so I was able to kind of look at that
link |
01:24:47.280
and think, oh, maybe this and that.
link |
01:24:48.640
And so since then, there have been some groups
link |
01:24:50.640
that have confirmed more with in vivo
link |
01:24:53.340
and or in vitro studies,
link |
01:24:54.640
because mine was all in silico and all that stuff.
link |
01:24:57.120
But anyways, so serotonin, a really important one.
link |
01:25:00.840
But most people, I mean, this is regulating
link |
01:25:03.040
our immune cell, immune system.
link |
01:25:05.520
It's regulating our blood pressure,
link |
01:25:09.160
all that water retention.
link |
01:25:12.160
I mean, bone, of course, homeostasis, 5%, more than 5%.
link |
01:25:16.200
I mean, I can't tell you so much.
link |
01:25:19.400
And with 70% of the US population deficient,
link |
01:25:23.640
I'm beginning to think that this could be the linchpin
link |
01:25:27.360
in a number of really important issues.
link |
01:25:29.940
So supplementing vitamin D3 is what I normally hear is the,
link |
01:25:35.160
I do, I take, I think I end up taking 5,000 IUs,
link |
01:25:39.480
sometimes 10 IUs of vitamin D3 per day.
link |
01:25:42.300
Just done that for a long time,
link |
01:25:43.440
and I've had my levels tested and they're in range.
link |
01:25:45.780
But I have a family member, I'll just mention this.
link |
01:25:48.120
I have a family member who was not feeling well,
link |
01:25:51.000
just kind of feeling off, a little low,
link |
01:25:52.960
had some digestive issues.
link |
01:25:54.360
This went on a long period of time,
link |
01:25:56.560
was taking, on my recommendation, 15,000 IUs of D3
link |
01:26:01.320
and was still deficient in D3.
link |
01:26:03.740
Now takes, and I'm not suggesting anyone do this
link |
01:26:06.000
as a special case, perhaps,
link |
01:26:07.800
but no chronic illness that we're aware of,
link |
01:26:11.160
needs to take 30,000 IUs per day
link |
01:26:13.780
in order to bring their D3 range just into normal.
link |
01:26:18.060
Which is, to me, is striking because they eat quite well,
link |
01:26:20.440
they're a healthy weight, et cetera.
link |
01:26:22.240
And it's made a tremendous difference
link |
01:26:24.040
in terms of their mood.
link |
01:26:24.880
Now, of course, this is correlative.
link |
01:26:25.920
Now they feel better, they're doing it.
link |
01:26:27.200
Who knows?
link |
01:26:28.040
They're probably also getting outside more.
link |
01:26:29.300
But I mean, I think people need to get tested.
link |
01:26:32.960
They need to get their D3 levels tested.
link |
01:26:35.520
But where and what is a good starting range
link |
01:26:38.620
for people to think about D3 supplementation?
link |
01:26:41.240
And again, foods that can increase D3.
link |
01:26:45.440
So vitamin D3 is a good way to supplement with it.
link |
01:26:48.920
Their vitamin D2 would be a plant source.
link |
01:26:50.960
You often find it as fortified in foods like milk,
link |
01:26:54.360
usually D2.
link |
01:26:55.200
There's been a few-
link |
01:26:56.040
Does anyone still drink milk besides kids?
link |
01:26:59.880
Oh, here, it's like you can't find cow's milk.
link |
01:27:02.240
I mean, all the latkes that you're getting.
link |
01:27:04.080
Oat milk, soy milk, what's the other one?
link |
01:27:06.120
They're fortified in those as well.
link |
01:27:07.840
Oh, they are, okay.
link |
01:27:08.680
They are, yeah, they're fortified in-
link |
01:27:09.760
I have a hard time finding cow's milk.
link |
01:27:10.600
Almond milk and oat milk and all that stuff.
link |
01:27:12.880
Yeah, they're in all that stuff.
link |
01:27:15.600
Vitamin D is naturally, to some degree, in fatty fish.
link |
01:27:19.120
You think about cod liver oil, it has vitamin D,
link |
01:27:23.040
but you're not going to correct a deficiency
link |
01:27:26.640
with eating fish for your vitamin D.
link |
01:27:29.520
You're either going to correct it with sun exposure,
link |
01:27:31.960
being in the right area, having the right amount of sun,
link |
01:27:34.320
and being the right age, because as you get old,
link |
01:27:37.120
you become very inefficient at doing that,
link |
01:27:39.600
converting vitamin D, making vitamin D3 in your skin.
link |
01:27:43.760
Well, that's probably what was going on here,
link |
01:27:45.360
because this person is getting up in their area.
link |
01:27:47.080
There's a lot of single nucleotide polymorphisms.
link |
01:27:50.400
We talked about ApoE4 previously,
link |
01:27:52.160
but there's a variety of genes that people have,
link |
01:27:56.320
very common, actually.
link |
01:27:57.520
In fact, I've had many people
link |
01:27:58.800
that have done that exact same thing.
link |
01:28:01.120
So measuring your vitamin D levels
link |
01:28:04.560
before and after supplementation
link |
01:28:06.320
is the only way you're going to figure that out, right?
link |
01:28:08.440
Very important.
link |
01:28:09.280
If you don't measure it, you don't know.
link |
01:28:11.320
You can't know what you don't measure.
link |
01:28:13.400
So there's a variety of SNPs that basically
link |
01:28:17.400
make that conversion inefficient.
link |
01:28:19.160
And in fact, there have been a lot
link |
01:28:21.320
of these Mendelian randomization studies.
link |
01:28:23.400
So these are studies where people,
link |
01:28:26.440
scientists will look at common SNPs,
link |
01:28:30.680
people that have these common variations of a gene
link |
01:28:33.320
that's more than 1% of the population.
link |
01:28:35.880
So it's not a random mutation.
link |
01:28:37.280
It's actually found in a sizable percent of the population.
link |
01:28:41.320
And then they've looked at various outcomes.
link |
01:28:43.440
And a lot of times, they'll look at genes
link |
01:28:45.400
that are also involved in some kind of lifestyle factors,
link |
01:28:47.960
so vitamin D and SNPs that basically make the conversion
link |
01:28:52.040
of either vitamin D precursor into D3
link |
01:28:55.520
or in D3 into 25-hydroxy vitamin D
link |
01:28:58.240
or into the active steroid hormone,
link |
01:28:59.840
which is 125-hydroxy vitamin D.
link |
01:29:02.160
And there's a variety of different SNPs that show people.
link |
01:29:05.640
So you're not looking at vitamin D levels at all.
link |
01:29:07.720
You're looking at just the SNPs.
link |
01:29:08.920
And you know if they have it, they have low vitamin D.
link |
01:29:11.560
So it's really a way of doing
link |
01:29:14.520
a beautifully randomized controlled trial
link |
01:29:17.400
with an observational study because you're not biased.
link |
01:29:22.280
Vitamin D levels are also associated with health.
link |
01:29:24.520
People that have higher vitamin D are either outside more,
link |
01:29:27.560
they're more physically active,
link |
01:29:28.720
or they're aware of their health
link |
01:29:30.440
and their supplementing, right?
link |
01:29:31.480
So you always have to worry about that
link |
01:29:33.600
when you're doing an observational study.
link |
01:29:35.480
But Mendelian randomization is beautiful for that reason
link |
01:29:37.800
where you now just, people randomly have these genes
link |
01:29:41.400
and it's not like, there's no health status.
link |
01:29:43.720
Like if you have the SNP, like your family member
link |
01:29:46.560
was healthy and all that, they were healthy
link |
01:29:48.520
and yet they couldn't get their D levels up, right?
link |
01:29:50.720
So these Mendelian randomization studies have found
link |
01:29:53.680
that people that can't convert into the precursor,
link |
01:29:58.000
the 25-hydroxy vitamin D,
link |
01:29:59.360
which is usually what's measured,
link |
01:30:00.440
it's the most stable form of vitamin D in the body,
link |
01:30:03.560
they have a higher all-cause mortality if they can't do it.
link |
01:30:06.280
So people that don't have it
link |
01:30:08.040
have a lower all-cause mortality.
link |
01:30:09.600
They have a higher respiratory-related mortality.
link |
01:30:12.960
They have a higher cancer-related mortality.
link |
01:30:15.160
So to me, now why did I get on this rant?
link |
01:30:19.200
Oh, because you're a family member.
link |
01:30:21.120
So basically, they also are more likely
link |
01:30:23.480
to get multiple sclerosis.
link |
01:30:24.480
This has all been done with Mendelian randomization.
link |
01:30:26.320
And so it really does hammer home the importance
link |
01:30:29.600
of measuring your vitamin D levels
link |
01:30:31.720
and being very proactive about that.
link |
01:30:34.840
I mean, you can get it done anyway.
link |
01:30:36.840
Your doctor will do it.
link |
01:30:37.680
You ask them to do it.
link |
01:30:39.160
So supplementation-wise,
link |
01:30:41.680
typically if you don't have one of those SNPs,
link |
01:30:44.600
for the most part, taking 1,000 IUs of vitamin D
link |
01:30:47.880
will raise blood levels
link |
01:30:49.480
by around five nanograms per milliliter.
link |
01:30:52.000
So let's say you're deficient,
link |
01:30:53.200
you're 20 nanograms per milliliter
link |
01:30:55.200
and you wanna get to 40.
link |
01:30:57.060
You're gonna need at least 4,000 IUs
link |
01:30:59.040
if you don't have any of these SNPs
link |
01:31:02.600
that change your metabolism of vitamin D, right?
link |
01:31:04.440
Does it matter when you take it relative to sun exposure,
link |
01:31:08.240
time of day, with or without food?
link |
01:31:11.160
I've seen some not so great preliminary evidence
link |
01:31:15.880
suggesting maybe time of day is important.
link |
01:31:18.920
I don't think it really,
link |
01:31:20.080
like I can't seem to find anything that really suggests
link |
01:31:24.560
because like for it to actually be converted
link |
01:31:26.640
into the hormone, I mean, it's stored.
link |
01:31:28.600
It's a slow acting.
link |
01:31:29.440
These steroid hormones are slow acting.
link |
01:31:31.080
Yeah, it's not like a media thing, right?
link |
01:31:33.400
So like maybe we'll get some new data that's like otherwise,
link |
01:31:37.000
but I just don't, yeah.
link |
01:31:38.400
It simplifies the problem anyway.
link |
01:31:40.080
So for people who are going to be stubborn
link |
01:31:42.520
and not get their D3 levels tested
link |
01:31:44.560
or their D levels tested and simply say,
link |
01:31:48.240
oh, I'll just take some D3.
link |
01:31:50.880
That was me, by the way, until I got tested.
link |
01:31:55.080
I threw 5,000 IUs into the mix and figured,
link |
01:31:57.400
well, it's not gonna kill me.
link |
01:31:58.300
It'll bring my vitamin D levels up.
link |
01:32:00.180
And I realized that's a bit of a coarse way to approach it,
link |
01:32:03.480
but I feel fine and I'm still breathing an ambulatory.
link |
01:32:06.720
So is that reasonable?
link |
01:32:09.540
1,000 to 5,000 IUs for most people will be reasonably safe.
link |
01:32:12.580
Again, we're not making,
link |
01:32:13.840
just assuming that people are gonna just jump to it
link |
01:32:16.480
without the blood test.
link |
01:32:17.840
Of course.
link |
01:32:18.680
I think that if we look at the literature,
link |
01:32:22.800
the scientific literature,
link |
01:32:24.480
it is extremely hard to get like hypercalcemia,
link |
01:32:27.840
which would be the major concern with really high levels
link |
01:32:30.660
of vitamin D3 supplementation.
link |
01:32:32.360
I mean, we're talking like hundreds of thousands of IU
link |
01:32:35.560
a day for a long time.
link |
01:32:38.040
So-
link |
01:32:38.860
Hundreds of thousands.
link |
01:32:39.700
Yes, yes.
link |
01:32:40.720
Now the upper tolerable intake was set
link |
01:32:43.480
by the Medicine Institute to be 4,000.
link |
01:32:48.920
It was just like the safe,
link |
01:32:49.960
it was kind of like one of those things where it's safe.
link |
01:32:52.480
I personally take 5,000 IUs a day as well.
link |
01:32:55.560
And my levels really hover around 50 nanograms per mil.
link |
01:32:59.960
And I do out, I don't put sunscreen on like all the time.
link |
01:33:04.560
Like I do put it on my face and I wear a hat,
link |
01:33:06.040
but like some of my skin is being exposed.
link |
01:33:07.840
So I do make it from the sun as well.
link |
01:33:10.580
But-
link |
01:33:11.420
I'm glad you brought up the fact
link |
01:33:13.640
that you keep arms exposed if you,
link |
01:33:15.320
because in these studies that I mentioned before,
link |
01:33:18.360
looking at sun exposure on skin
link |
01:33:20.320
and increases in other hormones,
link |
01:33:22.520
testosterone, estrogen mainly,
link |
01:33:24.560
it became clear from looking at those data
link |
01:33:26.840
that the amount of skin that you expose is important,
link |
01:33:30.000
which makes perfect sense once you hear that.
link |
01:33:31.680
But I think most people are thinking,
link |
01:33:32.600
oh, I'm out in the sun,
link |
01:33:34.240
but are you wearing shorts and a t-shirt
link |
01:33:37.040
or are you wearing a sweatshirt and it's a hoodie
link |
01:33:39.160
or are you all covered up out in the sun?
link |
01:33:41.460
Well, that might be great for setting your circadian rhythm
link |
01:33:43.640
by way of a light to through the eyes
link |
01:33:45.440
because that's the primary mechanism for that.
link |
01:33:47.360
But it seems to me that the more of your body surface
link |
01:33:51.060
that you can safely and appropriately,
link |
01:33:54.120
please folks, appropriately exposed to the sun,
link |
01:33:57.360
the more vitamin D you're going to create, right?
link |
01:33:59.700
So laying out on your back deck in shorts and a t-shirt
link |
01:34:03.840
with arms exposed and legs exposed
link |
01:34:05.400
is a very different stimulus
link |
01:34:07.440
than walking around in jeans and a sweatshirt.
link |
01:34:10.240
Right?
link |
01:34:11.080
Okay.
link |
01:34:11.900
Okay.
link |
01:34:12.740
Especially if you have sunscreen on your face.
link |
01:34:13.900
I know it almost seems like trivially simple,
link |
01:34:16.060
but I'm not sure that people are used to thinking
link |
01:34:18.040
about their skin as a interface to create these hormones.
link |
01:34:22.800
So surface area matters.
link |
01:34:24.440
And by the way, there have been studies
link |
01:34:27.600
looking at people that are deficient in vitamin D.
link |
01:34:31.500
In this case, it was African-Americans
link |
01:34:33.360
that were given a 4,000 IU a day vitamin D supplement
link |
01:34:36.540
to bring them back to sufficient levels.
link |
01:34:38.940
And this was a smaller study than I would like,
link |
01:34:43.360
but it reversed their epigenetic aging by like three years
link |
01:34:47.840
because again, it's a hormone.
link |
01:34:51.180
It's regulating more than 5%
link |
01:34:53.240
of your protein encoding human genome.
link |
01:34:55.560
There's been studies looking at
link |
01:34:57.200
vitamin D receptor knockout mice.
link |
01:34:59.800
And I use this a lot in my presentations
link |
01:35:01.720
when I'm talking about vitamin D and longevity.
link |
01:35:03.420
But if you look at these animals,
link |
01:35:05.800
the vitamin D receptor, as I mentioned earlier,
link |
01:35:08.720
vitamin D binds to the receptor
link |
01:35:10.520
and then it complexes with the retinoid receptor
link |
01:35:12.560
and they go into the nucleus of the complex
link |
01:35:14.080
and you turn on and turn off genes.
link |
01:35:16.140
Well, if you get rid of that receptor,
link |
01:35:17.440
which is what you can do in animal studies,
link |
01:35:20.320
you can sort of determine like what effects
link |
01:35:23.000
there will be with no vitamin D, right?
link |
01:35:25.120
Like how do you study no vitamin D?
link |
01:35:27.040
And so what was found was that these animals,
link |
01:35:31.000
and in fact, I don't think it was a complete knockout
link |
01:35:34.080
because I think it might be embryonic lethal, but-
link |
01:35:36.160
Some hypomorphism. Yes.
link |
01:35:37.720
Which is basically geek speak for a gene
link |
01:35:40.400
is vastly reduced in its number and function,
link |
01:35:44.800
number, people know what I mean,
link |
01:35:46.320
but isn't eliminated completely, yeah.
link |
01:35:48.940
Right, well, these animals,
link |
01:35:50.400
if you look at them after the age of four months,
link |
01:35:53.480
I mean, the mice look like,
link |
01:35:56.520
I mean, they're accelerated aging, they're wrinkled,
link |
01:35:59.000
they have no hair, I mean, they just,
link |
01:36:00.960
I mean, their lifespan's shorter.
link |
01:36:02.560
I mean, they just, you can look at this animal
link |
01:36:04.560
and not know anything about mice or work with them
link |
01:36:06.640
and be like, that animal looks like it's, you know,
link |
01:36:10.160
of course, mice lifespans are only like two,
link |
01:36:11.800
two and a half years, but like 500 years old.
link |
01:36:14.440
Right, it looks like it went to graduate school twice.
link |
01:36:17.520
Actually graduate school is a lot of fun.
link |
01:36:19.200
I like to think I age backwards in graduate school,
link |
01:36:21.120
which is not true.
link |
01:36:21.940
I look at the photos, I definitely aged forward.
link |
01:36:24.160
You on the other hand look exactly the same way
link |
01:36:26.200
you did 10 years ago.
link |
01:36:27.240
I'm not saying that to flatter you, but it's absolutely true.
link |
01:36:29.700
I mean, the data are the data, it's remarkable.
link |
01:36:32.360
So I think it's, I'm definitely gonna try
link |
01:36:34.320
and get my omega-3 percentage up there.
link |
01:36:36.560
I'm not gonna, you know, hinge at all on that,
link |
01:36:38.560
but clearly you're doing a lot of things right.
link |
01:36:41.920
So if I'm taking vitamin D3,
link |
01:36:44.720
I still need to get out into the sun, correct?
link |
01:36:48.640
Okay, I think a lot of people don't know that,
link |
01:36:50.840
or at least I have family members
link |
01:36:52.160
that have been a little bit resistance.
link |
01:36:53.280
Like I take my vitamin D,
link |
01:36:54.360
so I don't need to get outside as much.
link |
01:36:56.400
I think people are really afraid of getting out
link |
01:36:58.160
into the sun because they're worried about melanomas.
link |
01:37:00.720
And I'm as, to be honest, I'm as scared of sunscreen
link |
01:37:04.880
as I am of melanoma.
link |
01:37:06.360
Like that some of the things in sunscreen are really spooky,
link |
01:37:09.420
mainly the compound.
link |
01:37:10.800
And here, I'm not one of these conspiracy,
link |
01:37:12.600
I drink tap water with some folks.
link |
01:37:14.320
Like people cringe with it.
link |
01:37:15.380
I drink tap water.
link |
01:37:16.920
I have the occasional croissant or donut.
link |
01:37:18.600
I'm not, you know, I'm 90%, 80% of the time
link |
01:37:21.660
I'm doing the right things the right way, I think,
link |
01:37:23.560
although I'm now gonna improve on them
link |
01:37:24.880
with this new knowledge.
link |
01:37:25.720
But I don't like what I see in most sunscreens
link |
01:37:30.840
because if you look at these compounds,
link |
01:37:32.820
they cross the blood-brain barrier.
link |
01:37:35.040
I don't want compounds crossing the blood-brain barrier.
link |
01:37:38.080
Titanium dioxide?
link |
01:37:39.160
Dioxide, some of the triclosans
link |
01:37:40.920
that are also in these cleansers.
link |
01:37:42.640
I mean, once you know a little bit about neurons, folks,
link |
01:37:46.600
you realize that the neurons you got
link |
01:37:48.200
are basically the ones you've got for your entire life.
link |
01:37:50.700
You know, there's a reason why there's a blood-brain barrier,
link |
01:37:52.740
a blood ovary, and a blood testes barrier
link |
01:37:54.920
is because the genetic material resides
link |
01:37:56.600
in the testes, the ovaries,
link |
01:37:57.680
and the brain, those neurons don't turn over.
link |
01:37:59.400
There are a few new neurons,
link |
01:38:00.560
but not that many unless you're a mouse, frankly.
link |
01:38:03.440
And so protecting those is very key.
link |
01:38:05.220
And a lot of the things in sunscreen
link |
01:38:08.380
are downright dangerous.
link |
01:38:10.040
So I think there are sunscreens that are safe,
link |
01:38:12.600
but it's very hard to figure out
link |
01:38:14.680
which sunscreens are free of these compounds.
link |
01:38:17.840
I'm amazed that they're still on the market, frankly.
link |
01:38:20.160
I've always geared towards the ones
link |
01:38:22.800
with the minerals that are like reflecting it.
link |
01:38:26.440
It is somewhat difficult to penetrate things
link |
01:38:29.560
all the way through the skin, get into the bloodstream.
link |
01:38:32.620
I don't, but I don't know,
link |
01:38:33.920
maybe some of these compounds get in there easily.
link |
01:38:35.760
I have seen the evidence with some of those things.
link |
01:38:38.280
Yeah, there is some evidence they go transdermal.
link |
01:38:41.640
And they get in, okay, well,
link |
01:38:42.960
I know that some of them react with the sun.
link |
01:38:45.880
And while they do protect from the UVA and or B,
link |
01:38:49.120
they like form massive reactive oxygen species
link |
01:38:51.600
and carcinogen.
link |
01:38:53.160
I mean, it's like the very thing
link |
01:38:54.280
you're trying to protect yourself from
link |
01:38:56.320
might actually cause, we don't know.
link |
01:38:59.040
I mean, like it's completely speculation.
link |
01:39:01.240
But there is like, I think some more and more evidence
link |
01:39:04.360
coming out with some of those compounds.
link |
01:39:05.480
And I can't remember all of them off the top of my head,
link |
01:39:08.240
but a lot of high-end ones also have,
link |
01:39:12.060
it's the chemical sunscreen ones, the chemical ones.
link |
01:39:14.880
We should do, I'm proposing that we do a journal club.
link |
01:39:17.360
A journal club, folks, is where academics get together
link |
01:39:19.520
and read papers and they get together
link |
01:39:21.920
and they pick apart the papers.
link |
01:39:23.680
There's a strong correlation
link |
01:39:25.240
between being an early graduate student
link |
01:39:27.080
and being the most critical.
link |
01:39:28.200
Because once you've actually published some papers,
link |
01:39:29.640
you realize that most studies, people are doing their best
link |
01:39:33.320
within the context of what they can do.
link |
01:39:34.980
But it'd be great to do a journal club at some point
link |
01:39:37.360
about sunscreens.
link |
01:39:38.880
Because I'd love to really figure out
link |
01:39:40.180
what's in these compounds.
link |
01:39:41.360
I mean, people are using them like crazy.
link |
01:39:43.120
And I'm not one of these people who's like,
link |
01:39:44.400
oh, I won't use commercial toothpaste or anything like that.
link |
01:39:47.920
Like I said, I drink tap water,
link |
01:39:49.240
I use commercial toothpaste, whatever.
link |
01:39:50.800
But when it comes to sunscreen, it freaks me out
link |
01:39:52.700
because some of these compounds do go transdermal
link |
01:39:55.760
and some of them cross the blood brain barrier.
link |
01:39:57.920
And I'd like to keep my neurons free of that stuff.
link |
01:40:00.760
Anyway, we're speculating now.
link |
01:40:02.360
Wear a hat.
link |
01:40:03.180
Wear a hat.
link |
01:40:04.020
But get out in the sun and get your D3 levels up.
link |
01:40:08.060
Okay, so we've talked about these plant-based compounds,
link |
01:40:10.620
the omega-3s and D3.
link |
01:40:13.240
Unless there's something else that you just absolutely
link |
01:40:16.620
must throw into the mix,
link |
01:40:18.180
I probably will return us to the conversation
link |
01:40:21.060
that I opened up with, which is about cold and heat,
link |
01:40:23.100
which admittedly I pulled us off that path.
link |
01:40:25.860
So I want to take full responsibility for that.
link |
01:40:28.340
But before I do that,
link |
01:40:29.740
I just want to offer you the opportunity.
link |
01:40:31.100
Is there anything that fit to supplement-based
link |
01:40:36.680
or food-based compounds that you think
link |
01:40:40.620
are especially useful for brain and or body health?
link |
01:40:43.660
I do think magnesium is important in there as well.
link |
01:40:46.460
I mean, I think, you know, again,
link |
01:40:48.980
about 40% of the U.S. population
link |
01:40:50.960
doesn't get enough magnesium.
link |
01:40:52.500
It's an essential mineral we're supposed to be getting
link |
01:40:55.060
from our diet and it's-
link |
01:40:56.460
Involved in everything.
link |
01:40:57.700
It is.
link |
01:40:58.700
It's also involved in vitamin D metabolism.
link |
01:41:01.300
And in fact, being deficient in magnesium
link |
01:41:04.460
may make it more difficult for you
link |
01:41:06.380
to actually make vitamin D hormone,
link |
01:41:09.740
so that 125-hydroxyvitamin D.
link |
01:41:12.020
So one of those other factors, again,
link |
01:41:14.540
we talked about genetics,
link |
01:41:15.520
but there's also magnesium status as well.
link |
01:41:17.660
Considering 40%, that's a big number.
link |
01:41:20.700
Now, you know, magnesium's also involved in making ATP,
link |
01:41:26.260
the energetic currency of our cells.
link |
01:41:28.660
They're, you know, basically,
link |
01:41:29.820
all of our cells need ATP to do anything.
link |
01:41:31.860
And it's also involved in utilizing ATP,
link |
01:41:35.300
as well as DNA repair enzymes.
link |
01:41:36.920
These are enzymes that are involved
link |
01:41:38.080
in repairing damage to our DNA.
link |
01:41:40.020
I personally think that magnesium insufficiency
link |
01:41:45.460
causes an insidious type of damage daily
link |
01:41:48.260
that you can't look in the mirror and see.
link |
01:41:50.380
Like, when you're deficient in vitamin C,
link |
01:41:53.260
you're like, my gums are falling apart.
link |
01:41:55.460
I have scurvy, right?
link |
01:41:56.640
But like, you can't see DNA damage.
link |
01:41:58.580
You can't see it, but it's happening.
link |
01:41:59.640
It's happening right now in my body,
link |
01:42:00.860
and it's happening in your body.
link |
01:42:01.700
It's happening, normal metabolism is happening,
link |
01:42:03.900
you know, every day.
link |
01:42:05.740
But we repair that damage.
link |
01:42:07.140
We have repair enzymes in our body
link |
01:42:09.220
called DNA repair enzymes.
link |
01:42:10.860
They require magnesium.
link |
01:42:12.260
Magnesium is a cofactor for them.
link |
01:42:15.220
What that means is, you know,
link |
01:42:16.380
a cofactor means enzymes need it to function properly.
link |
01:42:19.660
And so without that cofactor,
link |
01:42:22.700
they're not doing it properly.
link |
01:42:23.820
And I like, the way I like to think about magnesium,
link |
01:42:27.140
it's easy because people go, what food should I eat, right?
link |
01:42:29.260
Naturally, that's the next question.
link |
01:42:30.780
Well, magnesium is at the center of a chlorophyll molecule.
link |
01:42:34.160
Chlorophyll is what gives plants their green color.
link |
01:42:36.720
So dark leafy greens are high in magnesium.
link |
01:42:41.140
It's one of the, and basically,
link |
01:42:42.480
what does the 40% insufficiency in the U.S. tell us?
link |
01:42:46.620
People aren't eating their greens.
link |
01:42:47.820
They're not eating their greens.
link |
01:42:48.780
They're eating their packaged food.
link |
01:42:49.780
They're eating their processed food.
link |
01:42:50.740
Standard American diet isn't really high
link |
01:42:52.480
in dark leafy greens.
link |
01:42:54.160
So dark leafy greens are how I like to get my magnesium.
link |
01:42:57.780
I think it comes along with all these other important,
link |
01:43:00.560
I mean, you get calcium in them, you get vitamin K1,
link |
01:43:03.660
you're getting a lot of other micronutrients,
link |
01:43:05.220
and you're getting other compounds that we don't know about
link |
01:43:07.540
and ones that we know about, like sulforaphane, right?
link |
01:43:12.300
As with broccoli, do I need to eat
link |
01:43:15.860
the dark leafy greens raw?
link |
01:43:18.020
And in this case, I'm a little more open to it
link |
01:43:19.860
because I actually like the taste of, dare I say, kale.
link |
01:43:22.640
And kale is a dark leafy green, right?
link |
01:43:25.260
It's obviously-
link |
01:43:26.100
And it's high in lutein and zeaxanthin as well.
link |
01:43:27.920
Yeah, no, I'm going to try chromatin,
link |
01:43:29.020
meaning I'm not colorblind,
link |
01:43:30.380
but I just want to make sure it falls
link |
01:43:31.940
under the strict category.
link |
01:43:33.060
Because every once in a while, I'm like,
link |
01:43:34.100
oh, I eat my vegetables.
link |
01:43:34.940
I like avocados.
link |
01:43:35.780
And people were reminding me avocados is not a vegetable.
link |
01:43:37.660
I love vegetables also.
link |
01:43:39.540
But so kale, what are some other examples?
link |
01:43:41.820
Kale, spinach, chard, like Swiss chard,
link |
01:43:44.380
rainbow chard, romaine lettuce.
link |
01:43:47.140
Is the bitterness an important component to this?
link |
01:43:49.140
I know everything-
link |
01:43:49.980
I don't know, but for sulforaphane,
link |
01:43:53.060
sulforaphane for cruciferous vegetables,
link |
01:43:54.840
that would be the brassica family.
link |
01:43:58.700
But your question about cooking them,
link |
01:44:02.060
so magnesium is, it is bound to the food matrix.
link |
01:44:05.420
And it can be somewhat less bioavailable.
link |
01:44:11.700
But so cooking it can somewhat release the magnesium,
link |
01:44:17.180
but it goes into the water too.
link |
01:44:18.940
So you have to either steam it
link |
01:44:21.700
or kind of get your water in with it.
link |
01:44:24.740
You can drink it.
link |
01:44:26.140
Yeah, I personally don't worry about it.
link |
01:44:28.860
I just don't worry.
link |
01:44:29.700
Great.
link |
01:44:30.520
Well, if you don't worry, I'm not gonna worry.
link |
01:44:31.360
But I also like, I too supplement with magnesium.
link |
01:44:33.260
I do take around, so supplementation with magnesium,
link |
01:44:37.220
I mean, we could go on and on.
link |
01:44:39.220
Let's keep this short and sweet
link |
01:44:40.700
because we're gonna get back to the other stuff.
link |
01:44:42.100
But it can cause GI distress at high doses.
link |
01:44:45.820
I personally like to take around 130 or 135 milligrams.
link |
01:44:50.980
That way it's not like a huge bolus to my gut.
link |
01:44:53.900
But I think it depends on the form of magnesium too.
link |
01:44:55.900
Yes, yeah.
link |
01:44:56.860
I mean, you can take like magnesium 3N8, for example,
link |
01:45:00.080
and it doesn't affect the gut as much.
link |
01:45:04.660
Magnesium citrate.
link |
01:45:06.020
Citrate is what I take.
link |
01:45:07.040
Yeah, it's a pretty potent gut stimulus.
link |
01:45:12.040
I mean, I feel like it's a little bit harder to digest.
link |
01:45:14.060
Well, I take 135 milligrams should be pretty good.
link |
01:45:16.940
And citrate actually, oh boy, do we wanna go here?
link |
01:45:19.660
So-
link |
01:45:20.500
I mean, it's up to you and we can, we don't have to.
link |
01:45:23.460
I personally, I've been supplementing with magnesium
link |
01:45:25.840
for a long time.
link |
01:45:26.680
Yeah.
link |
01:45:28.260
I use 3N8 and bisglycinate and malate for different reasons.
link |
01:45:35.220
So I, yes, I would love to go there if you're willing.
link |
01:45:37.660
I would say malate would be the best.
link |
01:45:39.180
And that has to do with the short chain fatty acids
link |
01:45:42.380
being good for the gut and a lot of work done
link |
01:45:44.180
by a former colleague of mine and good friend,
link |
01:45:45.820
Mark Shiganaga, showing that the short chain fatty acid
link |
01:45:48.380
citrate, malate, lactate, but specifically malate,
link |
01:45:51.860
really, and lactate are the other major ones
link |
01:45:53.780
that get into the gut epithelial cells
link |
01:45:56.780
and are an energy source for the mitochondria
link |
01:45:59.020
and the goblet cells.
link |
01:46:00.460
So anyways, whole other topic.
link |
01:46:03.580
That's okay.
link |
01:46:04.420
Yeah, I take malate because I was told
link |
01:46:06.140
that it would be helpful.
link |
01:46:08.660
First of all, it doesn't make me sleepy
link |
01:46:10.180
like some of the other forms of magnesium,
link |
01:46:12.180
which act as a mild sedative for me.
link |
01:46:15.820
They do tap into the GABAergic pathway,
link |
01:46:18.940
neurotransmitter folks that in general,
link |
01:46:21.620
broad sweeping generalization here,
link |
01:46:23.040
can have somewhat of a sedative quality,
link |
01:46:26.200
which is why I take magnesium 3N8
link |
01:46:28.860
and or bisglycinate before sleep,
link |
01:46:31.320
30 to 60 minutes before sleep.
link |
01:46:32.620
Definitely enhances my transition time to sleep
link |
01:46:36.540
and the depth of sleep.
link |
01:46:37.380
No question in my experience.
link |
01:46:40.060
There's some data that 3N8 can be neuroprotective,
link |
01:46:44.080
although those studies are still ongoing.
link |
01:46:46.780
I'm getting the sense that maybe
link |
01:46:48.340
you're a little more skeptical of that than I am.
link |
01:46:50.420
Yeah, no, I've seen the studies with the 3N8.
link |
01:46:53.700
I think like looking at the actual data
link |
01:46:56.060
from the one clinical study,
link |
01:46:59.160
there wasn't statistical significance
link |
01:47:01.100
until all three of the pieces of data were pulled together,
link |
01:47:04.780
but that really could just be
link |
01:47:05.740
because their sample size was too small, right?
link |
01:47:07.860
So I mean- Yeah, I'm thinking that that paired with the-
link |
01:47:10.140
The animal stuff.
link |
01:47:10.980
Yeah, the Guosong Liu's work on with,
link |
01:47:13.180
so in the, this is getting kind of
link |
01:47:15.300
into inside ball of neuroscience,
link |
01:47:17.580
the quality of the labs matters, folks,
link |
01:47:19.940
and that's something that's not accessible
link |
01:47:21.560
to people outside of fields.
link |
01:47:22.680
And Guosong Liu and some of the other folks
link |
01:47:25.740
at that time at MIT, I think very highly of their work.
link |
01:47:29.380
And so the animal studies are indeed just animal studies,
link |
01:47:32.500
but I was pretty impressed by what they did
link |
01:47:34.620
in those studies, very pioneering
link |
01:47:36.500
when you think about this being done 10, 12, 15 years ago.
link |
01:47:40.260
And then, yes, we need more human clinical data,
link |
01:47:42.780
but for me, I figured that given the safety profile
link |
01:47:46.300
of MAG3N8, given that it helps me sleep better
link |
01:47:48.580
and sleeping better is just better for everything, frankly,
link |
01:47:52.780
that's why I take it.
link |
01:47:53.660
And bisglycinate and 3N8 seem to be somewhat interchangeable,
link |
01:47:56.980
but I don't know of any reports
link |
01:47:58.860
that bisglycinate can be neuroprotective.
link |
01:48:00.980
But malate, I take sure in the daytime,
link |
01:48:04.300
for me, and again, this is subjective,
link |
01:48:06.000
it has a tangible effect in improving
link |
01:48:08.380
the recovery time from exercise.
link |
01:48:10.420
So I don't know that I've been sore from a workout
link |
01:48:13.340
since I started taking malate,
link |
01:48:14.860
and I used to get very sore
link |
01:48:17.020
from even kind of trivial workouts.
link |
01:48:19.380
So I don't know what's going on there,
link |
01:48:20.740
but I keep taking it.
link |
01:48:22.380
Malate, again, the short chain fatty acid,
link |
01:48:24.920
and I mean, when you do intense exercise,
link |
01:48:28.900
you release endotoxin from your gut.
link |
01:48:31.780
I'm just going back to the interesting work
link |
01:48:33.500
because the malate being the short chain fatty acid
link |
01:48:35.940
and Mark Sugarnog is showing,
link |
01:48:38.860
this is all in animal research, by the way,
link |
01:48:40.940
but I mean, it was like feeding these animals malate,
link |
01:48:43.940
and it really protected the gut, endotoxin release,
link |
01:48:46.540
and it affected metabolic syndrome and all sorts of things.
link |
01:48:49.460
But I think malate's awesome,
link |
01:48:50.940
and I always try to eat green apples.
link |
01:48:52.660
They're really high in malic acid.
link |
01:48:53.940
Oh, good to know.
link |
01:48:54.780
And tart cherries, tart cherries are really high in it
link |
01:48:57.340
as well, so.
link |
01:48:58.180
They also taste really good.
link |
01:48:59.020
But I was really interested
link |
01:49:00.420
in the magnesium 3N8 stuff.
link |
01:49:01.740
I take a supplement called Magnesium by Moon Juice,
link |
01:49:05.780
and it's like a little powder.
link |
01:49:07.820
It's got a little bit of monk fruit, but it tastes good,
link |
01:49:09.980
so I do it a little bit before bedtime as well,
link |
01:49:13.260
probably several more hours though,
link |
01:49:14.900
because I don't like to drink tons and tons of fluids
link |
01:49:16.860
before I go to bed,
link |
01:49:17.700
and it has magnesium 3N8
link |
01:49:19.540
and a variety of other versions of magnesium in it as well,
link |
01:49:23.020
and I really like it.
link |
01:49:24.060
But I thought the magnesium 3N8 stuff
link |
01:49:25.940
was super interesting.
link |
01:49:27.540
I would love to see more clinical data as well,
link |
01:49:29.500
but I think once we get it,
link |
01:49:31.140
it'll probably be like,
link |
01:49:31.980
oh, yeah, it's getting into the brain,
link |
01:49:33.300
and it's awesome, so why wait?
link |
01:49:35.220
Right, and along those lines,
link |
01:49:37.420
I once put out a post that said,
link |
01:49:40.140
you know, I feel like there are a number
link |
01:49:41.460
of different categories of health information consumers
link |
01:49:45.020
online and understanding which one you're in
link |
01:49:47.380
for which topic can alleviate a lot of the strain
link |
01:49:49.460
and stress of finding the information.
link |
01:49:50.940
There's some people that are perfectly comfortable
link |
01:49:52.980
with data from a mouse study.
link |
01:49:54.140
It's like if it's done in mice, great, I'll try it.
link |
01:49:56.420
Other people say, no, it has to be done in humans,
link |
01:49:59.220
double-blind placebo-controlled studies,
link |
01:50:01.380
randomized clinical trials, et cetera.
link |
01:50:04.100
And other people are just say, you know what?
link |
01:50:05.660
I don't even care about any of that.
link |
01:50:06.860
Just tell me what you do.
link |
01:50:08.500
And then other people are saying, you know what?
link |
01:50:09.620
I don't even care what you do.
link |
01:50:10.580
Just tell me what to do.
link |
01:50:12.060
And then there's this other category,
link |
01:50:13.740
which are if it's in pill form or powder form,
link |
01:50:15.700
they'll take it.
link |
01:50:16.620
And so I think a lot of the battles
link |
01:50:18.420
of people picking apart people's posts and things
link |
01:50:20.980
have to do with the fact that people don't realize
link |
01:50:23.540
that people are showing up to the table
link |
01:50:26.700
in one or some combination of those stances.
link |
01:50:29.940
We know people that will try anything,
link |
01:50:31.380
and we know people that won't take anything.
link |
01:50:33.220
So the idea here is to create an array of possibilities
link |
01:50:38.300
for people, and I think the animal data
link |
01:50:40.180
are very impressive.
link |
01:50:41.900
We should have you back on to talk-
link |
01:50:43.020
I take it with the hope of,
link |
01:50:44.380
because I feel like the animal data is very promising.
link |
01:50:47.020
And so I'm like, it probably is, so why not?
link |
01:50:50.020
Well, and obviously you're doing things right.
link |
01:50:53.460
So cold and heat converge on some common pathways
link |
01:50:59.220
related to what you called intermittent challenge,
link |
01:51:02.260
which I love.
link |
01:51:03.100
I think if intermittent fasting, cold, heat, exercise,
link |
01:51:08.100
I mean, maybe even intermittent sleep deprivation,
link |
01:51:10.060
I keep waiting for the intermittent
link |
01:51:11.140
sleep deprivation movement.
link |
01:51:12.220
I will say I pull a few all-nighters per year
link |
01:51:15.180
just for work demands and procrastination and deadlines.
link |
01:51:18.580
And I'm the worst combination of academic
link |
01:51:22.140
because I'm both a procrastinator and a perfectionist.
link |
01:51:24.700
So you end up pulling some all-nighters.
link |
01:51:26.900
The sleep I get the next night is pretty amazing.
link |
01:51:29.780
I must say it's the sleep of gods,
link |
01:51:31.820
but I don't recommend anyone use sleep deprivation for that.
link |
01:51:34.020
But I could imagine that we also evolved
link |
01:51:35.940
having some sleepless nights.
link |
01:51:37.900
So this idea of intermittent challenges
link |
01:51:40.060
is a really attractive one.
link |
01:51:41.020
And I want to make sure that we credit you
link |
01:51:42.340
with the phrase intermittent challenge.
link |
01:51:43.820
No, credit Dr. Mark Mattson.
link |
01:51:45.700
Okay, Dr. Mark Mattson gets credit.
link |
01:51:47.540
Who has published and he has used that phrase.
link |
01:51:49.820
Okay, great, we'll make sure.
link |
01:51:50.980
Just like Dr. David Sinclair, I love the xenohormesis.
link |
01:51:54.100
He was in like one of his publications just so many years ago
link |
01:51:56.540
and I just love it.
link |
01:51:57.380
It's brilliant, a brilliant term.
link |
01:51:59.020
So Mark Mattson gets credit for that.
link |
01:52:00.860
Those are pretty smart.
link |
01:52:03.060
I mean, it's a good school, I guess.
link |
01:52:05.700
Of course, it's a good school.
link |
01:52:07.740
We will credit the appropriate people.
link |
01:52:09.460
Thank you for that clarification.
link |
01:52:11.340
So you've talked a lot about the use of deliberate,
link |
01:52:16.420
what I call deliberate cold exposure,
link |
01:52:17.900
only to distinguish it from cold
link |
01:52:19.780
that you might just be accidentally exposed to.
link |
01:52:21.580
But it's sort of obvious when we say cold exposure.
link |
01:52:24.740
There are some amazing data on cold.
link |
01:52:27.420
The other day I saw a post from you
link |
01:52:29.140
and you've included this in talks
link |
01:52:30.480
before I did not know this until I learned it from you.
link |
01:52:32.820
So credit to you.
link |
01:52:33.940
That even 20 seconds of immersion in,
link |
01:52:38.340
I think it was four degree.
link |
01:52:39.740
49 degree Fahrenheit.
link |
01:52:41.020
49 degree Fahrenheit.
link |
01:52:42.720
Okay, I was translating this.
link |
01:52:43.940
49 degree Fahrenheit water.
link |
01:52:45.260
So cold water can lead to long lasting increases
link |
01:52:48.340
in epinephrine, adrenaline.
link |
01:52:50.980
And I have to presume other neuromodulators
link |
01:52:54.500
and neurochemicals as well.
link |
01:52:56.760
What are some cold protocols
link |
01:52:58.900
that you find particularly interesting or attractive
link |
01:53:02.460
from the standpoint of, I don't know,
link |
01:53:05.020
pick your favorite metabolism, neuro slash mood effects,
link |
01:53:11.660
brown fat stimulation,
link |
01:53:12.840
which of course weaves back to metabolism.
link |
01:53:15.620
We could do an entire episode all about cold,
link |
01:53:17.860
but what I'd love to know is what sort of activity
link |
01:53:21.740
or stimulus do you think is a reasonable
link |
01:53:24.540
and particularly potent one to use in terms of cold?
link |
01:53:28.940
So today I did three minutes at 49 degrees Fahrenheit.
link |
01:53:32.620
I have a cold tub.
link |
01:53:33.820
So you get in up to your neck?
link |
01:53:35.340
Well, I try.
link |
01:53:36.180
I keep floating up.
link |
01:53:37.940
And so I'm like, it's like really hard.
link |
01:53:40.200
So like I would say like maybe most of my shoulder.
link |
01:53:45.580
I mean, really I'm floating up.
link |
01:53:46.780
I was telling my husband, I was like,
link |
01:53:49.020
there's too much water in here for me.
link |
01:53:50.260
I can't- Or too much salt in there?
link |
01:53:51.420
Is it like the Dead Sea where you float on top?
link |
01:53:53.700
Is there salt in there?
link |
01:53:54.540
I don't know.
link |
01:53:55.380
He takes care of all the stuff that,
link |
01:53:57.220
it's the plunge.
link |
01:53:59.700
Yeah, and by the way,
link |
01:54:01.260
the podcast where I am sponsored by Plunge,
link |
01:54:03.060
they did give me one.
link |
01:54:03.940
That thing is fantastic.
link |
01:54:05.080
Also because it circulates the water.
link |
01:54:06.500
It does.
link |
01:54:07.340
Which makes sure that you break up the thermal layer
link |
01:54:08.460
and it's even colder.
link |
01:54:09.580
It is even colder.
link |
01:54:10.540
It sucks.
link |
01:54:11.460
Anyways, so look, I'll give it a,
link |
01:54:16.160
I'll be honest here.
link |
01:54:17.220
I wish I did more cold than I do.
link |
01:54:19.020
I do cold when I'm gonna go on a podcast.
link |
01:54:21.500
I definitely do cold when I'm gonna do a podcast,
link |
01:54:24.100
when I'm gonna give a talk or when I'm anxious.
link |
01:54:26.820
I need to make it more of a ritual.
link |
01:54:28.960
I love doing the sauna.
link |
01:54:30.940
I hate the cold.
link |
01:54:31.780
I hate it.
link |
01:54:32.600
Unless it's summertime.
link |
01:54:33.440
It's a lot easier for me to get in the cold
link |
01:54:34.620
in the summertime.
link |
01:54:35.440
But what I do love about the cold is how I feel after.
link |
01:54:40.700
And I feel less anxious.
link |
01:54:44.460
I feel good.
link |
01:54:45.940
I feel more focused,
link |
01:54:47.100
which is why I usually do it before,
link |
01:54:49.540
any type of public speaking or just when I'm just anxious.
link |
01:54:54.620
I'll just get in there.
link |
01:54:55.460
And so the 20 seconds at 49 degrees,
link |
01:54:59.060
I think it was 49 degrees Fahrenheit,
link |
01:55:01.060
was really a good number because time and temperature do,
link |
01:55:06.300
time or duration, I guess would be a better word,
link |
01:55:08.980
and temperature do matter.
link |
01:55:11.180
But you can do 20 seconds at a colder temperature,
link |
01:55:16.340
which is I prefer.
link |
01:55:17.220
Or you can do a minute or longer at a warmer temperature.
link |
01:55:21.020
I think there was another study showing
link |
01:55:23.460
59 degrees Fahrenheit at one hour.
link |
01:55:25.780
It was like two, three, four.
link |
01:55:26.860
But who wants to do one hour?
link |
01:55:28.300
Yeah, I'm familiar with that study.
link |
01:55:30.380
I love, so this is really,
link |
01:55:31.940
reveals just how absolutely nerdy I am
link |
01:55:34.900
and maybe why some times and relationships in my life
link |
01:55:37.580
were challenged.
link |
01:55:38.400
I love reading the method sections of papers.
link |
01:55:41.100
So people can come at me with a number of things
link |
01:55:43.220
about papers and I might miss something.
link |
01:55:45.540
Surely I miss certain things like anybody does.
link |
01:55:47.860
But the methods I sort of,
link |
01:55:49.860
I relish in reading the methods.
link |
01:55:51.340
And that paper is really interesting
link |
01:55:52.660
because they had people sit in lawn chairs, basically,
link |
01:55:55.660
in swimming pools for an hour.
link |
01:55:58.500
And it wasn't really, it was chilly.
link |
01:56:00.260
It wasn't super cold.
link |
01:56:01.540
I mean, 60 is not, it's not warm,
link |
01:56:03.840
but it's not ice cold, obviously.
link |
01:56:06.060
But an hour is ridiculous at some level.
link |
01:56:09.060
But the increases in dopamine were massive and lasted hours.
link |
01:56:13.980
So it's really, so the mood enhancing effects
link |
01:56:16.680
that you report are, they're not,
link |
01:56:19.380
you're not imagining that.
link |
01:56:20.860
Those are almost certainly a,
link |
01:56:23.660
the consequence of having slowly elevating,
link |
01:56:26.140
but significantly elevated dopamine that goes on for hours.
link |
01:56:29.620
That's almost a dream-like profile for dopamine
link |
01:56:32.780
because most everything else, like an Adderall,
link |
01:56:34.620
a Ritalin, a cup of coffee and a workout drink
link |
01:56:38.500
or pre-workout drink or something is gonna give you
link |
01:56:40.260
a big spike in adrenaline and dopamine and a big crash.
link |
01:56:43.700
And somehow it creates this really nice contoured profile.
link |
01:56:47.940
So I, whatever you're experiencing there
link |
01:56:49.880
is very nicely supported by the data.
link |
01:56:52.460
Well, I need to get, I need to get doing it more.
link |
01:56:54.780
I've had a couple of scary experiences
link |
01:56:57.580
going from hot to cold where blood pressure changes.
link |
01:57:02.420
I think where I basically went straight
link |
01:57:05.100
from a really hot jacuzzi.
link |
01:57:06.940
I was in there for like 30 minutes.
link |
01:57:08.660
I mean, I was, I was doing heat stress.
link |
01:57:09.940
Jacuzzi, okay.
link |
01:57:10.780
Yeah, 104 degrees Fahrenheit.
link |
01:57:12.560
That's toasty.
link |
01:57:13.400
And then I had for 30 minutes.
link |
01:57:14.820
And then I went straight into, at the time,
link |
01:57:18.140
it was our pool.
link |
01:57:18.980
It was in like February, it was like winter time.
link |
01:57:20.900
And it was 50, it was in the 50s.
link |
01:57:24.300
It was cold.
link |
01:57:25.920
And I was in there and I was like listening
link |
01:57:28.900
to Simon Garfunkel.
link |
01:57:29.740
I was like trying to stay in a long time, get on my cold.
link |
01:57:31.700
And I was trying to impress Dan
link |
01:57:32.540
because he like goes in there for like,
link |
01:57:34.220
he'll stay in there for like 15 minutes.
link |
01:57:37.360
But I started to feel really like blinky,
link |
01:57:40.620
like low blood pressure or something.
link |
01:57:42.180
And I got scared, so I got out.
link |
01:57:43.940
And then I couldn't stand like I had vertigo or something.
link |
01:57:47.220
And I was so scared, I was so scared.
link |
01:57:50.460
And so, and I've had a couple of times too
link |
01:57:52.860
where just going straight from the sauna to it,
link |
01:57:55.380
to the cold plunge, where I'm starting to feel,
link |
01:57:57.940
I'm like, ooh, I feel a little blood pressure change
link |
01:58:00.060
or something.
link |
01:58:00.880
And it makes sense.
link |
01:58:01.720
The sauna is causing vasodilation
link |
01:58:04.620
and the cold plunge is,
link |
01:58:06.420
or cold exposure is causing vasoconstriction.
link |
01:58:09.340
So it's like a very, you know, just shock to my system.
link |
01:58:12.980
And so now I wait.
link |
01:58:14.580
Like I wait like a few minutes before going in.
link |
01:58:17.100
But I do need to kind of like make it more,
link |
01:58:19.420
the cold more routine.
link |
01:58:20.540
Because I talk all about the science.
link |
01:58:22.260
I'm familiar with all the science.
link |
01:58:23.600
And you know, the norepinephrine or noradrenaline,
link |
01:58:26.920
you know, it's affecting brain and mood.
link |
01:58:29.500
And you know way more about that than I do.
link |
01:58:31.960
I know how I feel.
link |
01:58:32.860
And I know it's a neurotransmitter.
link |
01:58:34.720
And you know, it is released,
link |
01:58:37.140
at least in rats they've shown,
link |
01:58:38.780
or was it mice?
link |
01:58:39.620
I think it might've been rats,
link |
01:58:40.440
but multiple studies showing in that it's released
link |
01:58:42.940
from the cold in the brain.
link |
01:58:44.380
And now in humans as well.
link |
01:58:46.100
So in that study, we can put a link to this.
link |
01:58:49.420
It's published in 2000, European Journal of Physiology.
link |
01:58:52.800
That big dopamine increase.
link |
01:58:53.980
They also looked at epinephrine and cortisol
link |
01:58:56.020
and saw some really, yeah.
link |
01:58:57.300
So this has been done in humans.
link |
01:58:58.140
They did brain.
link |
01:58:58.980
Oh, I didn't know.
link |
01:58:59.800
Oh, no, no, not yet.
link |
01:59:00.640
The plasma.
link |
01:59:01.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
link |
01:59:02.300
Very hard to measure dopamine directly from the brain
link |
01:59:03.940
unless you're doing micro dialysis.
link |
01:59:05.140
Unfortunately, their skulls were intact.
link |
01:59:08.540
Fortunately for them,
link |
01:59:09.660
unfortunately for the research committee,
link |
01:59:11.100
their skulls were intact.
link |
01:59:12.140
So they couldn't measure directly in the brain.
link |
01:59:14.020
But obviously there's a correlate there.
link |
01:59:18.860
You know, it's a very real effect.
link |
01:59:20.740
I think that,
link |
01:59:22.520
but the advantage of not doing it too often
link |
01:59:25.420
is that you're not cold adapted.
link |
01:59:27.340
Now it's very hard for anyone to get truly cold adapted.
link |
01:59:30.520
Some people start to look forward to the cold.
link |
01:59:32.540
And what I think they're looking forward to
link |
01:59:33.900
is the feeling afterward, that dopamine rush.
link |
01:59:37.660
But if you get cold adapted,
link |
01:59:39.700
then it certainly blunts some of the effect.
link |
01:59:42.940
But I want to be cold adapted
link |
01:59:44.420
because that means I have more mitochondria
link |
01:59:46.980
in my adipose tissue and perhaps even muscle.
link |
01:59:50.500
Like that's been shown.
link |
01:59:52.020
So maybe there's a good opportunity to,
link |
01:59:54.260
so cold and UCP1, if you could educate us on UCP1,
link |
01:59:57.460
I find this really interesting.
link |
01:59:58.380
And I learned about it from you.
link |
01:59:59.860
Yeah, well, so norepinephrine
link |
02:00:02.260
actually released in the plasma.
link |
02:00:03.580
It does act as a hormone.
link |
02:00:05.500
Vasoconstriction is one thing it does,
link |
02:00:07.020
but it also regulates a variety of molecular functions
link |
02:00:11.020
that have to do with adaption to cold.
link |
02:00:13.500
One happening to be,
link |
02:00:16.580
shivering is a very inefficient way to produce heat,
link |
02:00:19.780
which is what your body's trying to do
link |
02:00:20.860
when it's exposed to cold.
link |
02:00:22.240
And your muscles are basically contracting
link |
02:00:24.380
and producing heat from that,
link |
02:00:26.980
but that's just not very efficient.
link |
02:00:28.440
So the more eloquent way to do it,
link |
02:00:31.260
or elegant, I guess, way to do it
link |
02:00:33.180
is to basically have your mitochondria produce
link |
02:00:37.180
tons and tons of heat.
link |
02:00:38.700
So the way it does this is by activating a gene
link |
02:00:41.880
called UCP1, uncoupling protein one.
link |
02:00:44.620
Norepinephrine is upstream of that, activating it.
link |
02:00:46.760
So what that does is essentially,
link |
02:00:49.780
so mitochondria are these little organelles
link |
02:00:51.900
inside of your cells that are responsible
link |
02:00:54.340
for producing energy.
link |
02:00:55.380
Usually that's in the form of adenosine triphosphate, ATP,
link |
02:01:00.060
and that's what lets everything function
link |
02:01:02.220
inside of your body, from your neurotransmitter production
link |
02:01:04.580
to your heart beating, et cetera.
link |
02:01:07.100
However, you can uncouple your mitochondria.
link |
02:01:10.540
Basically, your mitochondria,
link |
02:01:12.740
they're like a little battery.
link |
02:01:13.860
So they have, well, they have a double membrane,
link |
02:01:16.480
first of all, their structure,
link |
02:01:17.420
but they have a negative charge on the inside,
link |
02:01:19.740
and they have a positive charge on the inner membrane,
link |
02:01:22.580
so in between the outer membrane and the inside part.
link |
02:01:26.820
Like a neuron.
link |
02:01:27.920
Like a neuron, yeah.
link |
02:01:28.760
So I guess it's like a neuron.
link |
02:01:30.040
It's like a battery, negative and positive.
link |
02:01:31.860
Well, basically, you can uncouple that charge,
link |
02:01:34.140
and so that positive charge,
link |
02:01:35.260
protons start leaking out of the mitochondria,
link |
02:01:37.420
and your mitochondria freak out.
link |
02:01:39.060
So this is called uncoupling it,
link |
02:01:41.400
and they start to, it's maximum respiration, as we call it.
link |
02:01:45.300
They try to make as much energy.
link |
02:01:47.420
They're like, I gotta get that proton back,
link |
02:01:49.900
that gradient, the electrochemical gradient,
link |
02:01:52.100
and so they just go insane,
link |
02:01:54.520
and in this case, it's uncoupled energy,
link |
02:01:56.740
so the energy they're making is actually heat, not ATP,
link |
02:02:00.280
but heat is, but you're essentially burning substrate,
link |
02:02:03.420
so who cares?
link |
02:02:04.260
You're burning glucose, you're burning lipids,
link |
02:02:07.420
you're basically burning things and making heat,
link |
02:02:10.460
and so that's what uncoupling it does,
link |
02:02:12.740
and that is a much more efficient way
link |
02:02:14.620
of producing heat than shivering,
link |
02:02:16.460
so as you become more adapted,
link |
02:02:19.140
maybe the longer duration that you've stayed in the cold
link |
02:02:22.420
or the more times you've done it,
link |
02:02:23.640
you'll no longer shiver anymore.
link |
02:02:25.500
You will start to then just do this uncoupling type
link |
02:02:28.060
of thermogenesis, as it's called,
link |
02:02:30.180
and another type of adaptation that occurs
link |
02:02:33.340
is you actually produce more mitochondria
link |
02:02:35.780
in your adipose tissue,
link |
02:02:37.500
and that actually happens also regulated
link |
02:02:40.580
by norepinephrine or noradrenaline
link |
02:02:42.620
through a protein called PGC1 alpha,
link |
02:02:46.580
and what that protein does is it makes more mitochondria
link |
02:02:51.660
in your adipose cells, so per adipose cell,
link |
02:02:54.460
you're getting more mitochondria.
link |
02:02:55.820
It's a beautiful way to basically make more heat
link |
02:02:59.300
when you're, it's one of those things where it's like,
link |
02:03:02.060
your body's going, okay,
link |
02:03:03.420
I'm gonna be exposed to this cold next time.
link |
02:03:05.420
How can I make sure I don't die?
link |
02:03:07.620
Oh, I can have more mitochondria,
link |
02:03:09.300
and I'm gonna make more heat,
link |
02:03:10.380
and so you're making more mitochondria
link |
02:03:12.380
in your adipose tissue,
link |
02:03:13.440
and this is often referred to as like the browning of fat,
link |
02:03:17.100
and the reason for that is because
link |
02:03:18.460
if you look under a microscope at a lipid droplet,
link |
02:03:21.620
basically a fat cell, not a lipid droplet, adipocyte,
link |
02:03:26.620
you'll find that it looks darker
link |
02:03:29.500
because there's more mitochondria in there,
link |
02:03:31.300
so it's referred to as browning fat,
link |
02:03:33.820
and so I don't want to get into the whole beige fat,
link |
02:03:36.940
brown, you know, there's this whole,
link |
02:03:38.740
I'm sure you've had experts on that talk all about that,
link |
02:03:40.860
but-
link |
02:03:41.700
No, not yet.
link |
02:03:42.520
I mean, I always think of white fat, beige fat, brown fat,
link |
02:03:43.700
and beige is kind of intermediate.
link |
02:03:45.200
White can be converted into beige, but-
link |
02:03:46.860
Right, and beige can take on
link |
02:03:48.020
thermogenic characteristics, essentially,
link |
02:03:50.140
and so you can activate beige fat so that it's thermogenic
link |
02:03:54.340
in the sense that it's burning glucose
link |
02:03:57.220
and or, you know, fatty acids and producing heat.
link |
02:04:01.000
So the more you expose yourself to cold,
link |
02:04:05.500
the more you can brown your fat, so to speak,
link |
02:04:08.400
and therefore you can tolerate the cold for longer periods,
link |
02:04:12.320
which people do notice,
link |
02:04:13.920
and you can then have the thermogenic qualities
link |
02:04:17.480
of having more brown adipose tissue or beige,
link |
02:04:20.180
activated beige adipose tissue,
link |
02:04:22.020
which is, you know, you'll get a lot of naysayers
link |
02:04:24.660
out there saying, oh, brown fat
link |
02:04:26.380
doesn't regulate metabolism at all.
link |
02:04:28.820
The reality is there's like thousands of researchers
link |
02:04:31.180
trying to pill up brown fat and thermogenic,
link |
02:04:35.100
like they're trying to make it a pill
link |
02:04:36.660
because it does affect metabolism.
link |
02:04:38.940
You know, it's not the only thing.
link |
02:04:40.220
It's certainly, if you're obese and trying to lose weight,
link |
02:04:42.940
you're not gonna like do that just by doing cold exposure.
link |
02:04:45.780
You need to do dietary and exercise changes,
link |
02:04:48.820
you know, predominantly, but it does affect metabolism,
link |
02:04:52.500
and, you know, this has been shown in human studies,
link |
02:04:56.640
so it is an interesting,
link |
02:05:00.700
it's another possible mechanism for affecting metabolism,
link |
02:05:04.220
and that's in adipose tissue,
link |
02:05:05.940
but you also make more mitochondria and muscle tissue,
link |
02:05:09.580
and this is regulated not via norepinephrine,
link |
02:05:12.340
but it is still PGC1 alpha, interestingly.
link |
02:05:15.740
Not like, not that anyone else really cares,
link |
02:05:17.420
but maybe you do, Andrew.
link |
02:05:19.780
I'm eating this up.
link |
02:05:21.460
So PGC1 alpha is response to norepinephrine
link |
02:05:25.980
and adipose tissue to make more mitochondria,
link |
02:05:28.120
but in muscle tissue, it's unclear what the regulator is.
link |
02:05:32.280
Cold exposure does it, so this was shown
link |
02:05:35.460
at least in a couple of studies I've seen
link |
02:05:37.660
where people that were exercising, I believe,
link |
02:05:40.500
or maybe it may have been men only that were exercising,
link |
02:05:43.080
did some sort of training, and then did cold water immersion,
link |
02:05:46.300
something like 50 degrees Fahrenheit, 15 minutes,
link |
02:05:49.420
and PGC1 alpha, which is a biomarker
link |
02:05:51.540
for mitochondrial biogenesis,
link |
02:05:52.980
which is the generation of new mitochondria.
link |
02:05:55.300
By the way, that's awesome.
link |
02:05:56.700
You want more mitochondria in your muscle.
link |
02:05:58.200
It's associated with improved muscle mass,
link |
02:06:01.100
improved endurance.
link |
02:06:02.140
I mean, mitochondria are essentially
link |
02:06:04.540
either the making energy in your cell,
link |
02:06:05.900
and we, you know, we don't make more mitochondria normally.
link |
02:06:09.260
Like, you have certain inputs,
link |
02:06:10.740
high-intensity interval training exercise can do it.
link |
02:06:12.740
You can actually make more mitochondria.
link |
02:06:14.920
Yes, yeah, and that's been shown in people.
link |
02:06:17.580
Weight training or just high-intensity interval training?
link |
02:06:20.540
I haven't seen weight training.
link |
02:06:23.340
I've seen it in high-intensity interval training,
link |
02:06:25.540
endurance training, but that doesn't mean
link |
02:06:28.180
that it hasn't been shown.
link |
02:06:29.460
I just haven't seen it, or that it hasn't been looked at.
link |
02:06:31.280
It's good to know.
link |
02:06:32.120
I'm always looking for reasons to finally do
link |
02:06:34.300
more HIIT-type high-intensity interval training work.
link |
02:06:37.680
I do weight training, and I do low-intensity cardio.
link |
02:06:40.460
There was a brilliant study by,
link |
02:06:43.420
at the time he was a postdoc, Matthew Robinson,
link |
02:06:45.900
and he's now gone on to start his own lab
link |
02:06:49.900
at the University of Oregon Health Science Center.
link |
02:06:53.460
Great place, yeah.
link |
02:06:54.940
And he did this study where both young and older people,
link |
02:07:00.860
they had this whole high-intensity protocol,
link |
02:07:02.480
which I can't remember what it was,
link |
02:07:03.780
but their protocol for X amount of time,
link |
02:07:07.120
I'm sure it was at least a month,
link |
02:07:09.860
they then measured biomarkers of mitochondrial biogenesis
link |
02:07:13.400
in their muscle tissue.
link |
02:07:14.240
And the amount of mitochondrial biogenesis
link |
02:07:17.540
in old people specifically,
link |
02:07:19.100
it happened in both young and old from HIIT,
link |
02:07:20.860
from the high-intensity interval training,
link |
02:07:22.560
was, I mean, it was like enormous, at least 50%, I think.
link |
02:07:26.940
So I mean, it was just like, whoa.
link |
02:07:29.060
And so like, why would you want that?
link |
02:07:30.620
Well, you know, mitochondria, you don't make,
link |
02:07:34.660
your cells are turning over, you make new cells,
link |
02:07:36.620
you replace old ones with your mitochondria.
link |
02:07:39.020
You don't really do that for the most part.
link |
02:07:41.180
You can, mitochondrial biogenesis does happen,
link |
02:07:43.160
but you have to stimulate it to happen.
link |
02:07:45.180
And the way your mitochondria,
link |
02:07:46.820
like what happens with your mitochondria
link |
02:07:48.220
is they essentially are bobbing around inside of your cells,
link |
02:07:50.760
and then they fuse with other mitochondria,
link |
02:07:53.740
exchange all their content and mitochondrial DNA,
link |
02:07:55.700
and then fizz back apart.
link |
02:07:56.580
And that's how they kind of stay young-ish.
link |
02:07:58.820
But like, as you age,
link |
02:07:59.820
you keep doing that with the same pool of mitochondria,
link |
02:08:02.660
then you're gonna get a bunch of old mitochondria
link |
02:08:04.260
mixing old stuff together, right?
link |
02:08:06.200
So why wouldn't you wanna like bring up new, healthy,
link |
02:08:10.340
young mitochondria into that pool, right?
link |
02:08:13.420
So in my mind, when I hear mitochondrial biogenesis,
link |
02:08:16.140
I'm like aging, like, that's the first thing I think of.
link |
02:08:19.100
So anyways, cold exposure does that,
link |
02:08:22.060
other things as well, so.
link |
02:08:23.900
And please, thank you for offering to, you know,
link |
02:08:27.180
somehow filter the level of detail,
link |
02:08:29.240
but I assure you that listeners of this podcast
link |
02:08:31.820
are familiar with getting,
link |
02:08:34.040
drinking from the fire hose of mechanism,
link |
02:08:36.100
and that was really helpful.
link |
02:08:37.700
And again, this is just one example of maybe four
link |
02:08:40.780
or five other things that you've said, at least,
link |
02:08:43.580
that are gonna inspire me to change my behaviors.
link |
02:08:46.300
I'm gonna start doing some high intensity interval training.
link |
02:08:48.100
Dr. Andy Galpin was on this podcast recently,
link |
02:08:50.820
and he told me that the subtle zone two cardio
link |
02:08:53.540
and the weight training is great,
link |
02:08:54.780
but that I really should be doing
link |
02:08:55.940
some max heart rate work per week,
link |
02:08:58.740
you know, going into max heart rate for 90 seconds
link |
02:09:00.780
and resting and repeating that, maybe even mild repeats.
link |
02:09:03.660
I'm just curious as a brief aside
link |
02:09:05.180
before we talk about heat, what sort of cardiovascular
link |
02:09:11.020
or other types of training do you do?
link |
02:09:13.020
Do you do HIIT?
link |
02:09:13.860
I imagine you are doing high intensity interval training.
link |
02:09:16.020
If you could just give us a sense of the contour
link |
02:09:18.120
of your week as it relates to exercise,
link |
02:09:20.460
and because you've been very gracious
link |
02:09:22.620
in sharing some of what you do for supplements and food,
link |
02:09:24.980
what about exercise?
link |
02:09:26.980
So I, it all depends on my week, of course,
link |
02:09:29.420
and what I've got going on with my son
link |
02:09:31.900
and my work schedule, but I typically,
link |
02:09:33.900
I do a lot of high intensity interval Tabatas
link |
02:09:37.500
on a stationary cycle.
link |
02:09:38.700
I use Peloton because I just like that instructor there,
link |
02:09:43.280
like telling me what to do
link |
02:09:44.120
and then me competing with everyone else.
link |
02:09:45.540
I'm like, nah, you know?
link |
02:09:46.620
So it works for me.
link |
02:09:47.460
You're revealing something about your psychology.
link |
02:09:48.940
This is good.
link |
02:09:49.760
We just learned about,
link |
02:09:50.600
so this podcast is actually just a decoy
link |
02:09:52.700
for a psychological assessment of the guests.
link |
02:09:55.140
No, I'm kidding, but so now we know you're competitive.
link |
02:09:57.580
Good?
link |
02:09:58.420
That explains a lot of how you got through graduate school
link |
02:10:01.780
and then do what you do.
link |
02:10:03.340
So you're getting on the Peloton
link |
02:10:04.700
and what does it look like
link |
02:10:05.540
for someone who's not familiar with Peloton?
link |
02:10:07.260
I know what they are, but I've never been on one.
link |
02:10:10.260
You are peddling against the instructor
link |
02:10:12.520
for how many seconds?
link |
02:10:13.620
So you're, there's a bunch of people that are online
link |
02:10:16.300
either doing the class with you at the same time
link |
02:10:18.460
or have all time doing it
link |
02:10:20.220
so you can kind of toggle on what you want
link |
02:10:22.900
and like, you can try to compete
link |
02:10:24.360
against the all time number.
link |
02:10:25.200
Oh, so it's really competitive.
link |
02:10:26.020
Oh yeah.
link |
02:10:26.860
Okay.
link |