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Jeff Cavaliere: Optimize Your Exercise Program with Science-Based Tools | Huberman Lab Podcast #79



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Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,
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where we discuss science and science-based tools
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for everyday life.
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I'm Andrew Huberman,
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and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology
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at Stanford School of Medicine.
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Today, my guest is Jeff Cavaliere.
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Jeff Cavaliere holds a master of science
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in physical therapy,
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and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist.
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He did his training at the University of Connecticut stores,
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one of the top five programs in the world
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in physical therapy and sports medicine.
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I discovered Jeff Cavaliere over 10 years ago
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from his online content.
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His online content includes information
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about how to train for strength,
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how to train for hypertrophy, which is muscle growth,
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how to train for endurance,
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as well as how to rehabilitate injuries
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to avoid muscular imbalances, nutrition,
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and supplementation.
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I've always found his content
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to be incredibly science-based, incredibly clear,
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sometimes surprising, and always incredibly actionable.
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It is therefore not surprising
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that he has one of the largest online platforms
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for fitness, nutrition, supplementation,
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and injury rehabilitation.
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Jeff has also worked with an enormous number
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of professional athletes
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and has served as head physical therapist
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and assistant strength coach for the New York Mets.
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Again, the content that Jeff Cavaliere has posted online
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has been so immensely useful to me over the years
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that I was absolutely thrilled
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to get the chance to sit down with him
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and ask him about everything from how to train
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in terms of how to split up the body parts
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that you train across the week,
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how to integrate strength training and endurance training,
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when to stretch, how to stretch.
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Indeed, we talked about nutrition,
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we talk a bit about supplementation,
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we talk about how to really avoid creating imbalances
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in muscle and in neural control over muscle.
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So one thing that's really wonderful about Jeff
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is he really has an understanding
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of not just how muscles and bones and tendons
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and ligaments work together,
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but how the nervous system interfaces with those.
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We talked about the mental side of training,
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including when to bring specific concentration
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to the muscles that you're training
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and when to think more about how to move weights
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through space and think more about the movements overall.
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I'm certain that you'll find the conversation that we held
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to be immensely useful and informative
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for your fitness practices
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and also for how you mentally approach fitness in general
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and how to set up a lifelong fitness practice,
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one that will give you the strength that you desire,
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one that will give you the aesthetic results that you desire,
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one that will set you up for endurance
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and cardiovascular health,
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basically an overall fitness program.
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I really feel this is where Jeff Cavaliere shines
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above and beyond so many of the other PTs and fitness
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so-called influencers that are out there.
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Again, everything is grounded in science,
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everything is clear and everything is actionable.
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And while we do cover an enormous amount of information
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during today's episode,
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if you want to dive even deeper into that information,
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you can go to athletenext.com
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where you'll find some of Jeff's programs.
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You can also find him at athletenext on YouTube.
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There you will find videos, for instance,
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like the how to repair or heal from lower back pain,
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something that I actually followed directly
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long before I ever met Jeff, has over 32 million views.
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And that is not by accident,
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is because the protocols there again
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are surprising and actionable.
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They relieved my back pain very quickly without surgery.
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So I'm immensely grateful for that content.
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And it extends into everything from, again,
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hypertrophy, endurance and strength training and so on.
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Again, it's athletenext.com as the website,
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athletenext on YouTube, and also athletenext on Instagram.
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The Huberman Lab Podcast is proud to announce
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that we've partnered with Momentous Supplements.
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We've done that for several reasons.
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First of all, the quality of their supplements
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is exceedingly high.
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Second of all, we wanted to have a location
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where you could find all of the supplements
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discussed on the Huberman Lab Podcast
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in one easy to find place.
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You can now find that place at livemomentous.com
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slash Huberman.
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In addition, Momentous Supplements ship internationally,
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something that a lot of other supplement companies
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simply do not do.
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So that's terrific whether or not you live in the US
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or you live abroad.
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Right now, not all of the supplements
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that we discuss on the Huberman Lab Podcast are listed,
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but that catalog of supplements
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is being expanded very rapidly.
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And a good number of them that we've talked about,
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some of the more prominent ones for sleep and focus
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and other aspects of mental and physical health
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are already there.
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Again, you can find them at livemomentous.com
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slash Huberman.
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Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize
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that this podcast is separate from my teaching
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and research roles at Stanford.
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It is, however, part of my desire and effort
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to bring zero cost to consumer information
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about science and science-related tools
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to the general public.
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In keeping with that theme,
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I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
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Our first sponsor is Athletic Greens, now called AG1.
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I started taking AG1 way back in 2012,
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so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.
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The reason that I started taking AG1
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and the reason I still take AG1 twice a day
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is that it covers all of my foundational health needs
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for mental health, physical health, and performance.
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As I mentioned earlier, it has vitamins and minerals
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that cover any deficiencies I might have in my diet.
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It also has probiotics, and the probiotics are key
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for supporting the so-called gut microbiome.
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The gut microbiome are trillions of little micro bacteria
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that live in our gut from our throat
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all the way down to the base of our gut
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that support everything from our immune system
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to our hormone health to the so-called gut brain axis.
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That is, our gut and our brain are in direct communication
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with one another in ways that support our mood,
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our ability to think, and overall brain health.
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If you'd like to try Athletic Greens,
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you can go to athleticgreens.com slash Huberman
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to claim a special offer.
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They'll give you five free travel packs,
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and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3, K2.
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Vitamin D3 and K2 are essential
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for an enormous number of aspects
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of your mental health, physical health, and performance
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by impacting things like hormone regulation,
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calcium regulation, and cardiovascular health.
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Again, go to athleticgreens.com slash Huberman
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to claim that special offer.
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Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
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Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers
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with heating and sleep tracking
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and importantly, cooling capacity.
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I've talked many times before on this podcast
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and on another podcast about the close relationship
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between temperature and sleep.
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That is, your body temperature has to drop
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and waking up involves heating up of your body
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by about one to three degrees.
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Now, some people run cold during the night.
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I'm one such person.
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I tend to wake up in the middle of the night
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if I get warm at all.
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in a very precise way,
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so that I fall asleep easily, stay deeply asleep,
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The PodPro cover by Eight Sleep
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So again, it can be customized to your sleep needs.
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to save $150 at checkout.
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Today's episode is also brought to us by Roka.
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Roka makes eyeglasses and sunglasses
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that are of the absolute highest quality.
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The company was founded by two all-American swimmers
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from Stanford, and everything about Roka eyeglasses
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and sunglasses is made with performance in mind.
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That said, the aesthetics of Roka eyeglasses
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and sunglasses is superb.
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I've spent a lifetime working on the biology
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of the visual system,
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and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend
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with an enormous number of challenges
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in order to be able to see clearly.
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Roka understands this and has developed their eyeglasses
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and sunglasses in a manner such that when you move
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from say a shady area to a brightly lit area,
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or when you are in different lit environments indoors,
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you can always see with crystal clarity.
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And they won't slip off if you sweat.
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In fact, they were originally designed for exercise.
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You can wear them while running or cycling,
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but they have a terrific aesthetic.
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So unlike a lot of so-called performance
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or exercise glasses that are out there
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that make people frankly look like cyborgs in my opinion,
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Roka eyeglasses and sunglasses look terrific.
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You'd be proud to wear them to work or out to dinner
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and enter the code Huberman at checkout.
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And now for my discussion with Jeff Cavaliere.
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Jeff, such a pleasure for me to have you here.
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I'm glad to be here, it's amazing.
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I'm a long time consumer of your content.
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I've learned a tremendous amount about fitness,
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both in the weight room, cardio, nutrition,
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things that I've applied for over a decade.
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So for me, this is particularly meaningful.
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And my goal here is really to ask a bunch of questions
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to which I'm interested in the answers,
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but also for which I know the audience
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is really curious about.
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So one of your mantras is,
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if you want to look like an athlete, train like an athlete.
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And I think that's something really special
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that sets aside what you do
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from what a lot of other very well qualified people do.
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And in terms of the use of weights and resistance,
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whether or not it's body weight or weights in the gym
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or pulleys versus cardio,
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you know, in terms of overall health, aesthetics,
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and athleticism,
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is there a way that you could point to, you know,
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the idea that maybe people should be doing, you know,
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50% resistance training and 50% cardio,
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maybe it's 70-30, maybe it's 30-70.
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And here I'm talking about the typical person
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who would like to maintain,
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or maybe even add some muscle mass,
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probably in particular areas for most people,
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as opposed to just overall mass,
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although we'll talk about that later.
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And people who want to maintain a relatively low
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body fat percentage and being good cardiovascular health.
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What's the sort of contour of a basic program
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that anybody could think about as a starting place?
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I think it's like a 60-40 split,
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which would be leaning towards weight training,
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you know, strength and then, you know,
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the conditioning aspect be about 40%.
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So if you look at it over the course of a training week,
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I mean, five days in a gym would be a great task.
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And obviously not in the gym, it could be done at home,
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but three days strength training,
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Monday, Wednesday, Friday, conditioning,
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Tuesday, Thursday, you know, two days.
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It's a pretty easy roundabout way to split that up.
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Of course, depending upon training goals,
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and as you said, the aesthetic goals,
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like that will shift dramatically.
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But if you want to see the benefits of both,
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that's probably the effective dose for strength training
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and the effective dose for conditioning
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at the bare minimum level.
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Again, being a much better performer condition wise,
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you're going to want to do more than that.
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And in terms of the duration of those workouts,
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what's your suggestion?
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I've been weight training for about 30 years,
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running for about 30 years, and mainly for health,
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and have found that if I work hard in the gym
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or at resistance training for more than 60 minutes or so,
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it's very hard for me to recover.
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I start getting colds,
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I start getting weaker from workout to workout.
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But amazingly, at least to me,
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if I keep those workouts to about 10 minutes of warmup
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and 55 zero minutes or so of really hard work
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for resistance training,
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and I keep the cardiovascular work
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to about 30 to 45 minutes, I feel great.
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And I seem to make some progress,
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at least someplace in the workout from workout to workout.
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Yeah, I mean, those are good numbers
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because those are kind of numbers that we usually preach.
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We try to keep our workouts to an hour or less, if possible.
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Now, depending upon the split that you're following,
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if you're on a total body split,
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there's just going to be more that has to be done
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in a given amount of time.
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That again, if you're training primarily for strength,
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that could prolong the workout
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because the longer rest times in between sets.
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But in general, when you're not focused on that one aspect,
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but the overall health picture,
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then you can get the job done in under an hour.
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And again, I always say,
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on top of if you want to look like an athlete,
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train like an athlete is you can either train long
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or you can train hard, but you can't do both.
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And I really believe that the focus for me,
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I have a busy life,
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I have a lot of other things that I do, believe it or not.
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And it's like, I want to go hard and I want to go get out.
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And I find that my body also responds to that.
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I think a lot of guys' bodies respond to that.
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And particularly as you start to get older,
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I think it's the length of the workout
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that actually causes more problems
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than the intensity of what you're doing.
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Particularly if you're warmed up properly, like you said.
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I've found personally that my warmup
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has had to become more of an integral part of my workout
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than it ever has before.
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I could get in the gym when I was 20
link |
00:12:51.040
and I'm going right over, I'm doing the one set,
link |
00:12:53.100
two sets, I'm ready to go.
link |
00:12:55.260
And I never do another workout warmup set
link |
00:12:57.140
for any of the other exercises I do the rest of the day.
link |
00:13:00.140
That's not true anymore.
link |
00:13:02.060
And I found that as long as I'm willing
link |
00:13:03.920
to sort of give myself a little bit of a warmup,
link |
00:13:06.460
the intensity is not what bothers me.
link |
00:13:08.380
I'm very much in control of the weights that I use
link |
00:13:10.940
and it doesn't bother me.
link |
00:13:12.260
But if I start to go pretty long,
link |
00:13:14.620
I start to feel achy or I start to have problems.
link |
00:13:16.620
So again, depending upon age,
link |
00:13:18.320
that also plays a factor in the length.
link |
00:13:20.620
But again, I think everybody can achieve,
link |
00:13:23.740
on a standard program, can achieve the results
link |
00:13:26.140
that they want within an hour.
link |
00:13:28.060
In terms of splits, you mentioned splits.
link |
00:13:30.100
And so for those who aren't familiar with this term, splits,
link |
00:13:32.940
it's really which body parts are you training on which days?
link |
00:13:36.620
It seems like almost everybody follows
link |
00:13:38.340
a weekly workout schedule,
link |
00:13:40.300
although the body of course doesn't care about the week.
link |
00:13:42.860
There's no reason to think that once every seven days
link |
00:13:44.740
or twice every seven days makes sense physiologically,
link |
00:13:46.860
it's just the body doesn't work though.
link |
00:13:48.020
But that's the way life is structured.
link |
00:13:51.300
I've seen you discuss three days a week,
link |
00:13:54.780
whole body workouts.
link |
00:13:57.020
I've heard of splits like a pushing one day,
link |
00:14:00.660
pulling another day, legs another day, a day off, repeat.
link |
00:14:03.680
I mean, there's so many variations on this.
link |
00:14:05.780
What are some general themes that we can throw out there
link |
00:14:08.060
and in order to avoid the huge matrix of possibilities?
link |
00:14:11.780
You have some wonderful content that points to those.
link |
00:14:13.400
And we will cap, in our caption show notes,
link |
00:14:15.700
we will link out to some of those
link |
00:14:17.380
that are different ways to design splits.
link |
00:14:19.420
But in terms of giving people a logic
link |
00:14:21.660
of how to think about splitting up body parts,
link |
00:14:25.220
what's governing the split?
link |
00:14:27.260
What are the rules and the logic that dictate a split?
link |
00:14:30.080
For me, the first rule is will you stick to it, right?
link |
00:14:32.980
Like if you, cause there are split,
link |
00:14:34.240
I don't particularly like full body splits.
link |
00:14:36.940
I was actually talking to Jesse about that the other day.
link |
00:14:38.740
Like I don't necessarily like to have to train everything.
link |
00:14:42.380
Now, of course the volumes will come down per muscle group.
link |
00:14:45.540
But if you don't like to do that
link |
00:14:48.340
and you actually don't look forward to your workout
link |
00:14:50.280
because you're dreading having to do everything
link |
00:14:52.140
and feeling maybe too fatigued
link |
00:14:53.920
by the time your workout's over,
link |
00:14:55.340
or the fact that those generally do take a little bit longer
link |
00:14:57.700
and don't fit into your schedule,
link |
00:14:59.460
I don't care how effective the split is.
link |
00:15:01.440
A split not done is not effective.
link |
00:15:03.340
So you need to find one that fits.
link |
00:15:04.920
So maybe you go into an alternative option,
link |
00:15:07.480
like a push pull legs, like you mentioned.
link |
00:15:09.780
And that could be done either one cycle through the week
link |
00:15:13.860
on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday split,
link |
00:15:15.340
or it could be twice in a week.
link |
00:15:17.180
So you're actually training six times where you repeat it.
link |
00:15:20.700
Pull push legs, pull push legs,
link |
00:15:22.340
or however you want to do it,
link |
00:15:24.820
with either a day off in between the three days
link |
00:15:26.980
or at the end of the six days.
link |
00:15:29.220
And again, that actually impacts your schedule.
link |
00:15:31.360
I've broken that down before where it's,
link |
00:15:33.340
if you put it in between the three days,
link |
00:15:35.440
it's good because you're giving yourself
link |
00:15:36.660
an extra rest day in between,
link |
00:15:38.340
but it starts to shift that day off every week
link |
00:15:41.020
as we wrap around.
link |
00:15:41.860
So for those guys that were choosing that seven day schedule
link |
00:15:43.940
out of convenience in our heads,
link |
00:15:45.860
it starts to mess with that off day.
link |
00:15:47.460
So others like to just keep it predictably,
link |
00:15:49.160
let's say on a Sunday and train six days in a row.
link |
00:15:52.960
But that's a better way to maybe group
link |
00:15:56.220
similar muscle actions together,
link |
00:15:59.120
which I think I definitely prefer that
link |
00:16:01.540
because if I'm going to be training, pulling movements,
link |
00:16:05.020
at least there's a synergy between them.
link |
00:16:07.100
And I feel like I'm looking to achieve one goal that day.
link |
00:16:11.780
And then, I mean, quite honestly,
link |
00:16:13.980
you can go back to the bro split days
link |
00:16:16.100
and those still work effectively.
link |
00:16:18.340
There's a reason why they worked in the past.
link |
00:16:20.500
Like I think that science shows that there's smarter ways
link |
00:16:23.700
to do them these days.
link |
00:16:24.840
Like you can come back and hit a related muscle.
link |
00:16:27.800
So you could do, let's say biceps on one day
link |
00:16:30.460
and then come back two days later and do back,
link |
00:16:32.900
realizing again, synergy between the exercises there,
link |
00:16:36.740
your biceps are going to get restimulated again.
link |
00:16:38.840
So you could figure out ways to make that work.
link |
00:16:41.020
But the thing that I think is effective there
link |
00:16:43.100
is that tends to be one of the ones
link |
00:16:44.220
that people like the most because they can go in,
link |
00:16:46.580
they get their pump, they feel good,
link |
00:16:48.760
that it's pretty solely focused on one muscle group.
link |
00:16:51.940
Is that the definition of a bro split?
link |
00:16:53.580
One muscle group a day.
link |
00:16:55.500
I see.
link |
00:16:56.340
So it's very much geared towards strength and aesthetics,
link |
00:16:58.300
really maximizing chest one day.
link |
00:17:00.700
Probably more aesthetics than strength.
link |
00:17:02.500
Yeah.
link |
00:17:03.340
Hence the bro name.
link |
00:17:05.620
Yeah, but again, like, and here I am a science guy
link |
00:17:08.000
and I could appreciate the benefits of a bro split,
link |
00:17:10.540
especially because again, like what, to what end?
link |
00:17:13.220
Who's goal are we trying to achieve here?
link |
00:17:16.640
Theirs or ours?
link |
00:17:18.020
You know, like, I mean, if I'm applying my standards
link |
00:17:21.420
and my goals or even like athletic ideals,
link |
00:17:24.540
but they just want to get in shape,
link |
00:17:26.340
then it's perfectly fine to do a bro split in that instance
link |
00:17:30.500
if you're sticking to it again
link |
00:17:32.260
and you're seeing the results that you want to see from it.
link |
00:17:34.540
But they're able to really keep their focus on one muscle.
link |
00:17:38.620
They get to focus on, you know, like look,
link |
00:17:40.620
a lot of times people struggle with the way
link |
00:17:43.100
of an exercise feels until their second or third set.
link |
00:17:46.100
Like they don't have that proprioceptive ability
link |
00:17:48.100
to kind of lock in on an exercise.
link |
00:17:49.780
So spending a few, not only sets on the same exercise,
link |
00:17:54.440
but then doing another exercise
link |
00:17:55.660
with the same muscle group helps them to dial in
link |
00:17:57.260
a little bit better and get more out of their training.
link |
00:17:59.380
Yeah, that raises a really interesting,
link |
00:18:01.260
I think important question.
link |
00:18:02.380
Early on when I started resistance training,
link |
00:18:04.660
which was when I was 16 in high school,
link |
00:18:06.860
I got in touch with, and I was learning from Mike Mentzer.
link |
00:18:10.860
Me too, me too, that's crazy.
link |
00:18:13.580
And Mike was very helpful, very, very helpful.
link |
00:18:15.800
We got to be friendly.
link |
00:18:16.640
So if I just read his book,
link |
00:18:17.720
I didn't get a chance to be him, so I'm jealous right now.
link |
00:18:20.340
Back then, no internet,
link |
00:18:23.020
I paid by Western Union type thing to send him some money.
link |
00:18:26.420
For the back of the magazine.
link |
00:18:27.260
And then he got on the phone with me
link |
00:18:28.980
and my mother at the time was like,
link |
00:18:30.140
why is this grown man all in the house?
link |
00:18:32.460
And he gave me a very straightforward split,
link |
00:18:34.580
which was shoulders and arms.
link |
00:18:35.540
One day, he had me taking two days off
link |
00:18:38.060
and then training legs and then two days off
link |
00:18:40.140
and then chest and back, et cetera.
link |
00:18:41.260
And that's a variation of a bro split too,
link |
00:18:43.420
where you're sort of breaking them down that way,
link |
00:18:45.340
chest and back or chest and buys, you know?
link |
00:18:47.340
Yeah, and it worked very well for me.
link |
00:18:49.080
I probably would have, because of my age, I think,
link |
00:18:51.100
and because I was untrained, I think, largely untrained,
link |
00:18:54.180
I think it would have grown on many different programs,
link |
00:18:57.020
but it worked very well for me.
link |
00:18:58.400
I eventually just made that an every other day thing.
link |
00:19:01.260
So shoulders and arms, day off, legs, day or two off,
link |
00:19:04.020
because if you hit legs right, at least for me,
link |
00:19:06.100
I'm not training the next day.
link |
00:19:08.300
And then I'm not doing much of anything athletic
link |
00:19:10.780
the next day and chest and back and repeat and so on.
link |
00:19:13.220
And the reason I found that helpful
link |
00:19:15.300
is I almost always recovered between workouts.
link |
00:19:19.180
The six day a week program of push, pull, legs,
link |
00:19:22.280
push, pull, legs, to me seems excruciating
link |
00:19:26.040
from two standpoints.
link |
00:19:27.100
One is, at least with my recovery abilities
link |
00:19:30.020
or lack of recovery abilities,
link |
00:19:31.340
I can't imagine coming back feeling fresh.
link |
00:19:33.620
And the other one is if I'm in the gym
link |
00:19:35.660
more than four days a week, I really start to fatigue it
link |
00:19:39.220
about the whole psychological experience of it.
link |
00:19:41.540
Whereas if I'm in there three or four days a week,
link |
00:19:43.940
in other words, if I put a day off in between each workout,
link |
00:19:46.540
I really want to be there.
link |
00:19:48.080
And I get in there with a lot of fire.
link |
00:19:51.140
And I'm also doing other things on the off days.
link |
00:19:52.900
So I think that I love that you mentioned
link |
00:19:55.180
that the split that you'll stick to
link |
00:19:56.900
and that you can bring the intensity to,
link |
00:19:59.140
because I think that that's really important.
link |
00:20:01.220
I sometimes hear about two a day training.
link |
00:20:03.400
I've done two a day training twice in my lifetime,
link |
00:20:05.400
both times I got sick two days later.
link |
00:20:08.020
That's correlation, not causation, you know?
link |
00:20:10.540
But is there ever an instance
link |
00:20:13.540
where two a day weight training makes sense
link |
00:20:16.060
for the non-drug assisted, typical recovery ability person?
link |
00:20:21.340
I actually, I think it makes sense in some scenarios,
link |
00:20:24.660
but it doesn't make sense practically
link |
00:20:26.220
for a lot of people's schedules.
link |
00:20:27.360
So like, if you could break down,
link |
00:20:29.540
let's say you were going to do even a, you know,
link |
00:20:32.540
some version of a total body session,
link |
00:20:35.180
or maybe like you're going to do an upper lower split,
link |
00:20:37.740
right?
link |
00:20:38.580
You could do an upper workout and do the anterior chain
link |
00:20:42.500
or the pushing portion of that in one session,
link |
00:20:45.560
and then come back and do the pulling session
link |
00:20:47.780
later on at night if you had the opportunity to.
link |
00:20:51.100
The thing that you benefit from there
link |
00:20:52.480
is the freshness of focus.
link |
00:20:54.020
Again, like something in my head is sacrificed
link |
00:20:57.820
by the time you get towards the latter half
link |
00:20:59.940
of whatever workout you're in.
link |
00:21:01.360
To the same point you made before,
link |
00:21:02.540
like when you start to approach that 50 minutes,
link |
00:21:04.720
an hour mark, you are either losing focus,
link |
00:21:07.620
you're losing energy, you're losing contractile ability,
link |
00:21:10.020
you're losing something.
link |
00:21:11.380
And if you're relegating whatever it is,
link |
00:21:14.180
the pulling portion of that to the end of that workout,
link |
00:21:16.660
something suffers.
link |
00:21:17.500
So that, okay, if they realize that's happening,
link |
00:21:19.900
then maybe you switch them up
link |
00:21:21.060
the next time you do the workout
link |
00:21:22.120
where the pulling portion of the upper workout goes first,
link |
00:21:24.700
and then the pushing goes later.
link |
00:21:26.060
So you're at least not just continuing that cycle.
link |
00:21:29.540
But at the same time, if you were able
link |
00:21:31.420
to kind of split them up,
link |
00:21:33.180
you get a chance to kind of take a break,
link |
00:21:34.840
you can have that freshness of focus again,
link |
00:21:36.820
and you can actually get a better effort in.
link |
00:21:38.620
Because again, I think effort drives the results.
link |
00:21:40.720
So if the effort is not compromised,
link |
00:21:42.620
then you should be able to do that.
link |
00:21:44.020
But systemically, is that a problem?
link |
00:21:46.980
And I think that it is a problem for a lot of people.
link |
00:21:48.860
It's just hard to, it's hard to rev the engine up
link |
00:21:51.620
a lot of times during the day.
link |
00:21:53.020
You warm that thing up once,
link |
00:21:54.460
it's like that car in the winter,
link |
00:21:55.500
you get it going once, you're lucky.
link |
00:21:57.000
Okay, now you got to drive it the rest of the day.
link |
00:21:58.740
But you put it in the garage
link |
00:22:01.500
and try to start the next day, it's a problem.
link |
00:22:04.080
So, young people can get away with a lot more
link |
00:22:06.740
than older people could, you know?
link |
00:22:08.860
Well, I've never had a strong recovery quotient.
link |
00:22:10.780
But if I stick to this one day off in between,
link |
00:22:13.180
every once in a while, two days in a row training,
link |
00:22:15.480
maybe because I have to travel
link |
00:22:16.740
and I want to make sure I get all the workouts
link |
00:22:18.220
and kind of thing, I seem to be okay.
link |
00:22:20.260
I like your example of warming up the car,
link |
00:22:21.940
spoken like a true East Coast or those of us
link |
00:22:25.100
from the West Coast, took a moment there.
link |
00:22:27.100
But folks from the East Coast and the Midwest get it,
link |
00:22:31.500
and certainly from Europe.
link |
00:22:33.960
In terms of the mixing up of cardiovascular training
link |
00:22:39.380
and resistance training, same day, different day,
link |
00:22:44.020
which one should come first, which one should come second?
link |
00:22:47.280
If one's main goals, again,
link |
00:22:49.700
everyone listening has different goals,
link |
00:22:51.260
are most people would like to either maintain
link |
00:22:53.100
or gain some muscle.
link |
00:22:54.540
I don't know many people that want to lose muscle.
link |
00:22:56.460
Maintain or gain some muscle,
link |
00:22:57.700
usually in specific locations on their body.
link |
00:23:00.360
Most people would like to be a bit leaner or a lot leaner.
link |
00:23:02.980
There are a few people out there
link |
00:23:03.920
that are either naturally lean
link |
00:23:05.680
or actually just want to gain weight.
link |
00:23:07.460
But assuming that people want to get leaner,
link |
00:23:09.180
put on some muscle, maintain muscle,
link |
00:23:10.820
and want to have a healthy heart and a healthy brain,
link |
00:23:13.900
which basically requires a healthy cardiovascular system,
link |
00:23:17.040
how would you incorporate cardiovascular work
link |
00:23:20.020
into the overall weekly regimen?
link |
00:23:22.860
So again, I think that the bare minimum
link |
00:23:26.300
is probably twice a week in terms of cardiovascular,
link |
00:23:28.780
if you want to have some semblance
link |
00:23:30.300
of cardiovascular conditioning.
link |
00:23:31.460
But I think most people who actually need it more
link |
00:23:33.940
or want to pursue it more than that
link |
00:23:36.020
are going to need more time to do that.
link |
00:23:37.800
So at some point it can't just be relegated to a day off
link |
00:23:41.860
or a day off from the weight training workouts.
link |
00:23:44.780
So at some point it has to occur on the same day.
link |
00:23:48.260
And in that case, I just like to put it,
link |
00:23:50.700
if that is not your primary goal,
link |
00:23:52.920
but you're looking more for just the overall picture,
link |
00:23:56.020
the aesthetics you mentioned,
link |
00:23:56.940
putting muscle on in certain areas,
link |
00:23:58.660
then I would put it at the end of the workout.
link |
00:24:00.260
Because you don't want to in any way compromise
link |
00:24:02.700
the weight training workout.
link |
00:24:03.980
And as we've sort of referenced a couple of times already,
link |
00:24:06.460
the intensity of those workouts is important.
link |
00:24:08.660
And we know there's a strength component to those workouts
link |
00:24:12.140
also that is going to be a helpful stimulus for growth.
link |
00:24:17.020
So the conditioning, the cardio,
link |
00:24:19.420
that stuff done prior to any strength training workout
link |
00:24:23.520
is likely going to impair your ability
link |
00:24:25.620
to perform at your best.
link |
00:24:27.100
So unless it's just done for a quick little warmup
link |
00:24:29.260
in the beginning, but then it's not sustained long enough
link |
00:24:31.420
really to be a benefit for cardiovascular conditioning.
link |
00:24:34.060
So I just like to put that at the end,
link |
00:24:37.760
realizing that even if my effort level is lower,
link |
00:24:42.340
my output is lower,
link |
00:24:43.860
if it's still placing a demand on my cardiac output
link |
00:24:47.800
to get that conditioning effect because I'm fatigued,
link |
00:24:50.980
it still has a demand on my cardiac output.
link |
00:24:52.740
So it's still achieving its goal,
link |
00:24:54.100
but it didn't interfere with my main goal
link |
00:24:56.300
of being able to increase my performance in the gym.
link |
00:24:58.740
Got it.
link |
00:24:59.580
And in terms of the form of cardiovascular training,
link |
00:25:02.220
I've seen you do a number of, I have to say,
link |
00:25:06.140
very impressive high intensity interval type work.
link |
00:25:09.160
So burpee type work or pushups with crunches mixed into them.
link |
00:25:14.080
Anyway, people can see your videos too.
link |
00:25:15.780
I didn't describe those in the best way,
link |
00:25:17.740
but rather than on the treadmill
link |
00:25:20.940
or out jogging for 30, 45 minutes,
link |
00:25:22.940
is that because you prefer higher intensity,
link |
00:25:25.960
higher heart rate type training
link |
00:25:28.220
or is it because you live in cold Connecticut
link |
00:25:31.380
and you don't want to be out jogging on the roads
link |
00:25:33.260
in the middle of winter?
link |
00:25:35.100
I think all of the above.
link |
00:25:36.260
I mean, those are factors from a personal level,
link |
00:25:38.460
but I think that if we could blend function
link |
00:25:43.460
across these realms and not have such a delineation
link |
00:25:48.520
between this is my weight training
link |
00:25:49.920
and this is my conditioning,
link |
00:25:51.420
but figure out a way to blend them together,
link |
00:25:54.280
I always think that you've got a better opportunity
link |
00:25:56.780
to get that more well-rounded result.
link |
00:25:59.600
And I like to kind of mix up that straight conditioning work
link |
00:26:03.420
and also some of the footwork drills.
link |
00:26:05.720
Like we have some high expectations for guys
link |
00:26:08.040
that come into our programs,
link |
00:26:09.300
like to just do some footwork drills.
link |
00:26:11.600
Like ladders.
link |
00:26:12.440
Ladders or line drills or something.
link |
00:26:14.360
And you know what happens?
link |
00:26:15.200
People become intrigued and interested.
link |
00:26:16.960
Like, I never, I haven't tried this since high school.
link |
00:26:20.400
And they become interested in just the challenge of it.
link |
00:26:23.600
And as we become almost distracted by the challenge,
link |
00:26:26.400
we're now like finding ourselves conditioning.
link |
00:26:28.880
And I always think that's an important part
link |
00:26:31.360
that sometimes you got to draw people in
link |
00:26:34.960
to show them what they might be interested in.
link |
00:26:36.840
And from the output or the effect of it,
link |
00:26:39.120
I just think that when you're able to blend some,
link |
00:26:41.660
still maintain some of that strength training
link |
00:26:44.280
into the exercise.
link |
00:26:45.400
So as you mentioned,
link |
00:26:46.240
let's say I'm doing some kind of a pushup or a burpee.
link |
00:26:47.840
I mean, there is an anaerobic component to that
link |
00:26:52.000
that is going to be helpful
link |
00:26:54.080
rather than just walking or just jogging.
link |
00:26:57.840
Not to say that that isn't an effective means
link |
00:27:00.580
for strict cardiac conditioning.
link |
00:27:03.500
It's one of the ways that we've had for centuries to do it.
link |
00:27:07.700
But I just think that if we can blend it,
link |
00:27:10.180
then it becomes maybe a little bit more interesting
link |
00:27:12.480
and you get some of those crossover benefits
link |
00:27:14.680
and it doesn't become so segmented
link |
00:27:16.280
in terms of what we're trying to do.
link |
00:27:17.960
I love the idea of bringing some mental challenge
link |
00:27:20.680
and some desire to improve a skill while conditioning.
link |
00:27:23.540
That's not something that I've thought of before.
link |
00:27:25.320
And it's simply because I've overlooked it,
link |
00:27:26.920
but it makes sense because my sister who's reasonably fit,
link |
00:27:29.840
although I'm always trying to get her to do a bit more,
link |
00:27:32.560
she always asks me, what should I take?
link |
00:27:34.400
And I believe her in supplements
link |
00:27:36.520
for certain people in certain instances,
link |
00:27:38.160
but I keep telling her, behaviors are going to,
link |
00:27:41.840
and nutrition are going to have
link |
00:27:43.320
the greatest outsized positive effect.
link |
00:27:45.720
And she loves things like dance classes and things
link |
00:27:50.040
or kickboxing, these kinds of things.
link |
00:27:52.080
So it makes sense that if you can hook somebody
link |
00:27:54.640
on the conditioning aspect or the skill aspect
link |
00:27:56.800
and kind of trick them into doing more cardio,
link |
00:27:58.960
so to speak, that's terrific.
link |
00:28:00.600
Also, the neuroscientist in me just has to say, forgive me,
link |
00:28:04.800
that anytime you're engaging
link |
00:28:06.480
the two sets of motor neurons, the ones in your brain,
link |
00:28:09.280
the upper motor neurons and the ones in your spinal cord,
link |
00:28:11.080
anytime you're engaging those upper motor neurons,
link |
00:28:12.740
which are for deliberate, well-controlled action,
link |
00:28:15.900
you're doing a great thing for your brain
link |
00:28:17.920
in terms of brain longevity.
link |
00:28:19.120
So now I need to incorporate some actual skills
link |
00:28:22.880
into my training.
link |
00:28:25.560
Going back to weight training a bit,
link |
00:28:27.240
one of the most important things I learned from you
link |
00:28:31.480
over the years was that when training
link |
00:28:34.960
to increase muscle size, to really think
link |
00:28:38.080
not so much about moving weights,
link |
00:28:39.720
but more about challenging muscles.
link |
00:28:41.960
I also heard this from my friend Ben Pakulski,
link |
00:28:45.280
who's a very well-accomplished, he was a bodybuilder now,
link |
00:28:48.000
he's into other aspects of fitness, teaches fitness,
link |
00:28:50.320
but don't move weights, challenge muscles,
link |
00:28:52.400
unless you're trying to power lift
link |
00:28:53.800
or something of that sort, which I'm not.
link |
00:28:55.800
Immensely helpful.
link |
00:28:57.360
But the other thing that I learned from you
link |
00:28:59.280
that I combined with that was this idea
link |
00:29:02.800
that certain muscles will grow better
link |
00:29:06.080
and get stronger much more easily,
link |
00:29:07.840
maybe even will recover better
link |
00:29:09.800
because of our ability to contract them really hard.
link |
00:29:12.560
And this, what I call the cavalier test,
link |
00:29:14.620
which is, at least if I could paraphrase,
link |
00:29:19.080
so for instance, if I can, it's always the bicep, isn't it?
link |
00:29:23.320
Let's use the calf or the bicep.
link |
00:29:25.240
If you can flex your bicep to the point
link |
00:29:27.920
where it hurts a little bit,
link |
00:29:29.640
like it almost feels like a cramp or a cramp,
link |
00:29:31.600
or you can flex your calf to the point
link |
00:29:32.880
where it really cramps up a little bit,
link |
00:29:34.280
it almost feels like it's nodding up,
link |
00:29:36.000
that's a pretty good indication
link |
00:29:37.480
that you're going to be able
link |
00:29:38.320
to stimulate that muscle well under load
link |
00:29:41.800
if you're doing the movement properly.
link |
00:29:43.800
And that's the feeling to actually aim for each repetition,
link |
00:29:46.440
maybe even throughout the repetition.
link |
00:29:48.920
For me, this completely transformed my results.
link |
00:29:52.480
And this was, I think maybe five, six years ago
link |
00:29:54.520
that I first heard this from you,
link |
00:29:55.880
body parts that for me lagged behind
link |
00:29:58.480
that I thought maybe genetically weren't gonna work for me
link |
00:30:01.000
immediately just started growing, right?
link |
00:30:04.160
And I was getting stronger and stronger,
link |
00:30:06.120
and I thought this is really something,
link |
00:30:07.560
so much so that I've dedicated a portion of my research
link |
00:30:11.160
along with in collaboration with another group
link |
00:30:13.600
to try and understand what's happening
link |
00:30:16.000
in these upper motor neurons in the brain
link |
00:30:18.040
that can engage the muscles even more.
link |
00:30:20.200
And that it's not just about progressive overload
link |
00:30:22.660
or putting a pump into the muscle,
link |
00:30:25.200
that it's really this mind-muscle connection
link |
00:30:28.080
is a real thing when it comes to predicting results
link |
00:30:30.640
and that you can get better at it.
link |
00:30:32.400
So forgive me for paraphrasing
link |
00:30:34.840
your incredible content around this.
link |
00:30:36.320
It made a tremendous difference for me
link |
00:30:38.660
and a number of other people that I've passed that along to.
link |
00:30:40.960
But what can you, first of all, how did you arrive at that?
link |
00:30:45.120
Because we hear about the mind-muscle connection,
link |
00:30:46.780
but I really heard it first from you.
link |
00:30:48.560
How did you arrive at this kind of cramp test,
link |
00:30:50.360
the cavalier test as I'll call it?
link |
00:30:52.560
It's always weird when people name things
link |
00:30:53.720
after themselves in science,
link |
00:30:55.000
but other scientists can name things.
link |
00:30:56.840
So there is now officially the cavalier test
link |
00:30:58.860
is whether or not you can cramp the muscle
link |
00:31:01.120
in the absence of load, just flexing it
link |
00:31:03.360
to the point where it hurts a little bit.
link |
00:31:04.640
That would be a good indication
link |
00:31:06.840
that you could grow that muscle well.
link |
00:31:08.800
So how did you come up with this?
link |
00:31:10.860
I mean, honestly, it's something that made sense to me
link |
00:31:14.940
because during my workouts,
link |
00:31:17.440
even as a young kid, just starting out,
link |
00:31:20.340
I always wanted to know what is it working?
link |
00:31:22.600
A lot of people ask that question more so than you think.
link |
00:31:24.760
What is this supposed to work?
link |
00:31:26.280
And I don't know if you've ever noticed,
link |
00:31:28.720
but like when people ask that question,
link |
00:31:30.400
if they're being trained by a trainer
link |
00:31:32.240
and the trainer is saying, well, just do this,
link |
00:31:34.500
do this exercise and they'll show you how to do it.
link |
00:31:37.040
But then they'll say, but what is it supposed to work?
link |
00:31:39.280
Where am I supposed to feel this, right?
link |
00:31:40.840
People, did they just inherently ask that question?
link |
00:31:43.560
A lot of people will.
link |
00:31:45.080
I was one of those that did that and I asked that question
link |
00:31:47.400
not because I knew what I was doing,
link |
00:31:48.440
but just because I don't know,
link |
00:31:49.600
I wanted to know what was supposed to be doing the work.
link |
00:31:53.200
Once you do that and you start to seek that out and say,
link |
00:31:56.000
okay, well, the bicep is what's supposed
link |
00:31:57.680
to be doing the work,
link |
00:31:59.240
then I want to make sure the bicep's doing the work, right?
link |
00:32:01.740
So then I would just sort of really tweak the movement
link |
00:32:05.040
to make it do more work or feel more uncomfortable
link |
00:32:07.720
or get a stronger contraction,
link |
00:32:09.040
knowing if that's supposed to do the job.
link |
00:32:11.040
It wasn't until PT school that I'm learning,
link |
00:32:13.300
oh, well, flexion of the elbow is the brachialis
link |
00:32:15.920
and the biceps and the biceps responsible for supination.
link |
00:32:18.840
I learned other components of it,
link |
00:32:20.440
but all I wanted to know was to bring my arm up in a curl,
link |
00:32:23.360
what is supposed to do the job?
link |
00:32:25.000
So I would seek out ways to make that happen better.
link |
00:32:30.320
And when I was able to do that,
link |
00:32:31.720
I could feel the stronger contraction.
link |
00:32:33.740
And I just, I don't know what, I just, I was no visionary.
link |
00:32:36.240
I just felt like I knew that that was going to be better
link |
00:32:38.760
for me if the muscle I was trying to grow
link |
00:32:40.840
was being stressed more effectively.
link |
00:32:43.240
So when I was attempting to do this
link |
00:32:47.120
across different exercises,
link |
00:32:48.680
I would notice that what I could do potentially
link |
00:32:51.640
on a curl where my arm is up,
link |
00:32:54.520
where you asked me to flex my bicep, that position,
link |
00:32:57.440
I couldn't do if I was doing a concentration curl,
link |
00:33:00.880
or I couldn't carry over to a cable curl.
link |
00:33:03.760
And that shouldn't really change, right?
link |
00:33:06.200
Cause the function is still largely the same.
link |
00:33:08.480
There's still elbow flexion, there's still supination.
link |
00:33:10.880
Like why am I not able to do it there?
link |
00:33:13.300
And that's where it sort of clued into me that like,
link |
00:33:16.120
your mind muscle connection on not just your mind
link |
00:33:19.840
with one muscle, but on every exercise matters.
link |
00:33:22.680
And it varies from exercise to exercise.
link |
00:33:25.140
And even if you don't gain muscle size from doing that,
link |
00:33:28.440
although I think it's very hard not to,
link |
00:33:30.320
especially if you're not used to doing that,
link |
00:33:32.360
there's a term I like to call muscularity,
link |
00:33:35.400
which is a difference, right?
link |
00:33:36.720
It's the level of sort of resting tone in the muscle.
link |
00:33:39.320
That improves dramatically.
link |
00:33:41.440
If you can learn how to just start
link |
00:33:43.160
to engage that muscle better,
link |
00:33:46.760
the muscularity, the resting tone of that muscle is harder.
link |
00:33:50.280
It's more at attention, it's more alive, you know?
link |
00:33:55.680
And it's all driven from being able to connect better
link |
00:33:59.020
neurologically with the muscle that you're trying to train.
link |
00:34:02.040
I've talked about a lot,
link |
00:34:03.340
inefficiency is really what you're trying to seek
link |
00:34:06.660
in movements when you're trying to create hypertrophy.
link |
00:34:09.420
When strength is your goal,
link |
00:34:10.960
efficiency of the movement is what you're looking for.
link |
00:34:13.000
You're looking to have muscles tied together
link |
00:34:15.440
and work well, efficiently,
link |
00:34:17.000
the chest, the shoulders, the triceps,
link |
00:34:18.760
to get a bar off of your chest or in a bench press.
link |
00:34:21.200
You're not looking to make it a very inefficient,
link |
00:34:24.640
you know, leverages for your chest
link |
00:34:26.400
to try to grow your chest in a bench press.
link |
00:34:28.480
You're trying to let the whole package come together
link |
00:34:31.120
for a greater output.
link |
00:34:32.300
But when you're trying to go and create muscle hypertrophy,
link |
00:34:35.020
or even this muscularity that I talk about,
link |
00:34:37.160
you need to seek ways to make it feel more uncomfortable.
link |
00:34:40.120
Right?
link |
00:34:40.960
If you don't feel the discomfort,
link |
00:34:41.920
then you're doing something wrong.
link |
00:34:43.280
And I struggle to this day on certain muscle groups
link |
00:34:46.320
to still do that, even knowing what I'm trying to work
link |
00:34:48.920
and knowing what the goal of everything I'm preaching here.
link |
00:34:51.720
It's very difficult for some muscles
link |
00:34:53.440
and for certain people to do this on certain muscles.
link |
00:34:55.520
But as you mentioned, practice does help.
link |
00:34:58.820
And the more you become, you know,
link |
00:35:01.040
consistent and deliberate with what you're trying to do,
link |
00:35:03.400
the more of a result you actually get.
link |
00:35:05.900
It's a couple of really important points
link |
00:35:08.480
I'd like to delve into further.
link |
00:35:12.040
First of all, my hunch was always that the muscle groups
link |
00:35:15.840
that grew most easily and that I could contract hardest
link |
00:35:19.720
without any, the first time I did the Cavalier test
link |
00:35:22.840
got 10 out of 10, if we give it a 10 out of 10 scale.
link |
00:35:25.060
You know, it could just like cinch, isolate those muscles,
link |
00:35:27.160
cinch them, grow them easily.
link |
00:35:28.840
I mean, there's certain body parts I don't want to say
link |
00:35:30.560
which ones, because it doesn't really matter,
link |
00:35:32.480
that I always felt like if I just did pushups,
link |
00:35:34.560
they would grow and these muscles are far away
link |
00:35:36.320
from any of the muscles
link |
00:35:37.160
that are supposed to be involved in pushups.
link |
00:35:38.460
Even though I like to think I'm doing pushups correctly.
link |
00:35:41.200
You'll tell me if I'm not.
link |
00:35:43.720
But some of that I think is genetic
link |
00:35:46.140
and some of that has to do with the sports
link |
00:35:48.320
that I played when I was younger.
link |
00:35:49.760
So I swam, I played soccer, I skateboard.
link |
00:35:52.040
And then later I boxed.
link |
00:35:53.120
And so the muscles involved in those sports
link |
00:35:56.080
were always very easy to engage
link |
00:35:58.080
later when I went into the gym.
link |
00:36:00.280
So I guess perhaps a call to parents, you know,
link |
00:36:03.640
having kids do a lot of dynamic activity
link |
00:36:06.560
seems like it might be a good idea.
link |
00:36:08.280
The other thing is this issue of muscularity.
link |
00:36:11.440
I am so glad you brought that up.
link |
00:36:12.840
There are, I have to imagine, a large number of listeners
link |
00:36:16.440
who don't want to get bigger.
link |
00:36:17.960
They don't want to take up a larger clothing size.
link |
00:36:21.320
They don't want to take up more space.
link |
00:36:23.360
In fact, some of them would like to take up less space,
link |
00:36:25.160
but they want that quality that you're describing,
link |
00:36:28.440
which is that, you know, oftentimes you hear it more
link |
00:36:30.800
in the, here I'm stereotyping a bit,
link |
00:36:32.920
but with kindness, you know,
link |
00:36:35.000
you hear from women who are having weight training,
link |
00:36:37.400
they say, I don't want to get big often.
link |
00:36:38.980
Sometimes they do.
link |
00:36:39.820
But most women that I've helped weight train
link |
00:36:41.800
or talked to about weight training say,
link |
00:36:42.800
I don't want to get big, I want to get toned.
link |
00:36:44.440
And I think what they're referring to
link |
00:36:46.080
is this quality of muscularity,
link |
00:36:48.640
this idea that at resting or at close to rest
link |
00:36:52.000
or anytime someone reaches out and grabs a glass,
link |
00:36:54.080
that the muscles almost look like
link |
00:36:55.520
they're kind of twitching underneath the skin.
link |
00:36:57.360
And yet it's not Saran wrap skin, anatomy chart type skin.
link |
00:37:02.080
So this thing of muscularity or resting tone,
link |
00:37:06.000
you know, has a physiological basis.
link |
00:37:07.640
I think it's how readily the nerves
link |
00:37:09.680
are communicating with the muscles.
link |
00:37:11.240
And you're saying that by learning
link |
00:37:13.560
to engage the muscles more actively,
link |
00:37:15.600
the resting tone or muscularity can improve.
link |
00:37:18.240
Have you seen that both in men and women?
link |
00:37:20.480
Yeah. Oh yeah.
link |
00:37:21.300
And do you think this is something
link |
00:37:22.780
that takes upkeep, maintenance,
link |
00:37:25.960
or that, you know, once you develop that in a muscle,
link |
00:37:28.240
you can just kind of let it coast?
link |
00:37:29.640
So I think like everything that requires upkeep,
link |
00:37:32.820
you know, use or lose it, I do believe firmly.
link |
00:37:35.520
But like, I think that it's the development
link |
00:37:38.400
of the connection is going to be harder
link |
00:37:39.540
than the maintenance of the connection.
link |
00:37:41.160
As I said, I still struggle to this day for myself
link |
00:37:43.880
with, you know, unnamed muscle groups, you know, also,
link |
00:37:47.040
you know, but like, you know, there's just certain areas
link |
00:37:51.800
that are harder for your brain for whatever reason
link |
00:37:54.660
to just develop that connection at that type of level
link |
00:37:57.820
to create that extra strong contraction.
link |
00:38:00.640
But I think that with proper dedication and focus,
link |
00:38:04.440
and I'll go right out and say, you know,
link |
00:38:06.120
calves is one of the areas that I don't necessarily
link |
00:38:08.680
have a great connection with.
link |
00:38:09.680
And I also obviously must not care so much
link |
00:38:12.320
because I don't put in the time and effort
link |
00:38:14.040
to create that connection as I could.
link |
00:38:18.320
So I think what might happen is, you know, yeah,
link |
00:38:20.840
there could be a struggle there,
link |
00:38:21.880
but then with struggle comes disinterest.
link |
00:38:24.240
You're like, well, screw it, I'm a calf knot
link |
00:38:26.320
and I'm not going to do anything about it, you know.
link |
00:38:27.640
So I think if you put the required effort in
link |
00:38:31.600
and the time and repetitions that you will develop that
link |
00:38:34.040
and once you do develop it,
link |
00:38:35.080
it's going to stick around a lot longer than it would
link |
00:38:37.440
had you not invested any time into it at all.
link |
00:38:40.320
You know, not requiring as much of that.
link |
00:38:41.840
But I mean, I don't know, like, you know,
link |
00:38:43.600
you mentioned now when you train, it's like,
link |
00:38:47.000
you're just, this is just part of how you train now.
link |
00:38:49.720
Like you're going hard, you're trying to, you know,
link |
00:38:51.720
really forcefully contract.
link |
00:38:53.440
You're not just moving the weight,
link |
00:38:55.280
I say from point A to point B,
link |
00:38:57.060
but you're like trying to contract the weight
link |
00:38:59.400
through that range.
link |
00:39:01.200
That is a mindset that I try to put into
link |
00:39:04.280
what everything I'm doing,
link |
00:39:05.480
unless of course I'm focused on a strength exercise
link |
00:39:08.240
where I'm just trying to lift a greater amount
link |
00:39:11.120
and use all the muscles together.
link |
00:39:12.840
But when the goal is inefficiency for hypertrophy,
link |
00:39:15.680
I am really trying to create that contraction
link |
00:39:19.720
and it's just part of my training.
link |
00:39:21.360
So I guess that, you know, for consistency's sake,
link |
00:39:24.920
as long as I'm training, it's happening.
link |
00:39:26.760
You know, if I get away from training,
link |
00:39:28.660
then it's not happening at all.
link |
00:39:29.520
But you know, even there, I probably,
link |
00:39:31.760
another embarrassing admission,
link |
00:39:33.000
probably will mindfully do it throughout the day,
link |
00:39:35.520
even with the weight in my hand, you know,
link |
00:39:37.200
in certain muscle groups, whether it be my abs or my arm
link |
00:39:39.760
or my shoulders or something,
link |
00:39:40.960
I'm doing something just to sort of engage the muscles.
link |
00:39:43.000
And I do think that some of that sort of inane practice
link |
00:39:46.660
actually helps by the time you go back into the gym.
link |
00:39:48.900
You just kind of keep that connection going.
link |
00:39:52.240
Well, it certainly obeys all the rules of neuroplasticity.
link |
00:39:55.320
You know, the fire together, wire together mantra,
link |
00:39:57.880
which is the words of my colleague, Karla Schatz,
link |
00:40:01.080
hold true for all aspects of neural function,
link |
00:40:03.440
including nerve to muscle.
link |
00:40:05.080
So these flexing throughout the day
link |
00:40:06.680
or the deliberate isolation of contracting a muscle
link |
00:40:10.600
throughout the day is without question
link |
00:40:12.760
engaging neuroplasticity.
link |
00:40:14.040
And if you were to do fewer of those repetitions,
link |
00:40:15.880
you're going to get less engagement
link |
00:40:17.400
of the nerve to muscle connection.
link |
00:40:18.840
I can say this with a smile and with confidence,
link |
00:40:22.140
because one of the first things
link |
00:40:23.560
all neuroscience students learn
link |
00:40:24.880
is about the neuromuscular junction,
link |
00:40:26.480
because it's a really simple example
link |
00:40:28.880
of where the more times the nerve fires
link |
00:40:30.780
and gets the muscle to contract,
link |
00:40:32.240
the stronger that connection gets.
link |
00:40:33.560
Receptors are brought there, et cetera, et cetera.
link |
00:40:35.420
There's a whole bunch of mechanisms
link |
00:40:37.000
for the topic of another podcast.
link |
00:40:39.160
But basically that practice throughout the day
link |
00:40:43.660
makes total sense and works.
link |
00:40:45.920
Yeah, and there's no, believe me,
link |
00:40:47.280
there's no science behind that
link |
00:40:48.720
in terms of the application of it.
link |
00:40:50.440
You do it when you catch yourself doing it
link |
00:40:53.400
from time to time.
link |
00:40:54.240
But it is definitely something that's easily done discreetly
link |
00:40:57.600
and you wind up doing it.
link |
00:40:59.200
I actually, I think in a recent video
link |
00:41:01.120
when I did talk about growing your arms
link |
00:41:05.020
by just improving the connection,
link |
00:41:07.320
not that that connection itself
link |
00:41:09.160
is applying any load or resistance
link |
00:41:11.800
that's significant to create overload for growth,
link |
00:41:13.960
but it's the development of that connection
link |
00:41:16.280
that I then take back with me into the gym
link |
00:41:18.080
at a more effective level
link |
00:41:19.440
that takes every exercise I do there
link |
00:41:21.120
and makes it more effective.
link |
00:41:22.160
That's like sharpening the blade, so to speak.
link |
00:41:25.840
Yeah, certainly obeys the laws
link |
00:41:27.440
of nerve to muscle physiology.
link |
00:41:30.880
Want to just touch on a couple of things.
link |
00:41:34.080
If the goal is to challenge muscles
link |
00:41:36.320
and one is dividing their body into, let's say,
link |
00:41:39.560
a three or four day a week split or so,
link |
00:41:41.480
or maybe up to six,
link |
00:41:44.200
how do you know when a muscle
link |
00:41:46.240
is ready to be challenged again?
link |
00:41:48.080
I've heard, okay, every 48 hours
link |
00:41:50.200
as protein synthesis increases,
link |
00:41:52.260
and then we'll get into this, and then it drops off.
link |
00:41:54.720
But frankly, if I train my legs hard,
link |
00:41:59.520
I can get stronger from workout to workout,
link |
00:42:01.680
or at least better in some way,
link |
00:42:03.320
workout to workout, leg workout to leg workout,
link |
00:42:06.280
training them once every five to eight days.
link |
00:42:09.480
If I train them more often, I get worse.
link |
00:42:12.920
So whatever that 48 hour to 72 hour thing is,
link |
00:42:17.200
somehow my legs don't obey that,
link |
00:42:19.720
or maybe something else is wrong with me,
link |
00:42:21.400
but I'm sure there are many things else wrong with me.
link |
00:42:23.600
But how do you assess recovery at the local level,
link |
00:42:27.920
meaning at the level of the muscles?
link |
00:42:29.480
So we'll talk about soreness and getting better,
link |
00:42:32.180
stronger, more repetitions, et cetera.
link |
00:42:33.960
And then the systemic level,
link |
00:42:35.360
the level of the nervous system.
link |
00:42:36.840
And I'd love for you to tell us about the tool
link |
00:42:39.800
that, again, I learned from you,
link |
00:42:40.980
which is actually using a physical scale,
link |
00:42:43.240
because it turns out,
link |
00:42:45.000
that will let you tell what the tool is,
link |
00:42:47.560
but that tool is also actively being used
link |
00:42:50.640
for assessing cognitive decline and cognitive maintenance
link |
00:42:54.400
and cognitive function
link |
00:42:55.360
in people with Alzheimer's and dementia.
link |
00:42:57.860
Makes total sense.
link |
00:42:59.200
Makes total sense.
link |
00:43:00.040
All right, so regarding the first part of the question,
link |
00:43:06.040
like, how would you kind of dictate
link |
00:43:08.200
when a muscle is recovered?
link |
00:43:09.580
So I do think that what you're experiencing
link |
00:43:12.080
is totally real,
link |
00:43:14.500
that different muscles recover at different rates.
link |
00:43:17.240
And I've always been so fascinated by this concept.
link |
00:43:21.120
I've talked about internally with my team,
link |
00:43:23.000
but like, I feel like what we really need,
link |
00:43:25.840
the holy grail to training is going to be
link |
00:43:29.440
when we're able to crack the code on an individual basis,
link |
00:43:32.640
when a muscle is recovered,
link |
00:43:34.840
and that is going to dictate its training schedule.
link |
00:43:37.560
And the fact that you might have a bicep
link |
00:43:40.940
that could be trained via a pulling workout,
link |
00:43:44.420
a regular bicep dedicated workout,
link |
00:43:45.780
forget the split at the moment,
link |
00:43:46.780
you might have a bicep that's able to be trained
link |
00:43:49.100
that can be trained again the next day,
link |
00:43:52.920
and then the next day,
link |
00:43:53.760
and then maybe you need a day off after that.
link |
00:43:55.240
But like, in that,
link |
00:43:56.840
that can vary from person to person for sure.
link |
00:43:59.160
And it can vary from muscle to muscle in that person
link |
00:44:01.800
over the course of time, as you mentioned,
link |
00:44:04.280
because the systemic recovery is going to impact
link |
00:44:06.500
all those muscles anyway.
link |
00:44:07.680
But let's say you're systemically recovering,
link |
00:44:10.280
every muscle itself is going to have a recovery rate.
link |
00:44:14.320
And I think what's fascinating is that
link |
00:44:16.560
when you talked about before we like to train this week,
link |
00:44:19.360
or we have like the way our mind looks at training.
link |
00:44:22.220
Well, if that was the case with the biceps,
link |
00:44:24.680
that bicep is a slave to the rest of your training split.
link |
00:44:28.600
You know, where it's like,
link |
00:44:29.440
well, why does it have to be also
link |
00:44:31.360
at the end of every eighth day or, you know, or whatever,
link |
00:44:34.460
when it might respond better
link |
00:44:36.220
to something much more frequently?
link |
00:44:37.760
And your legs are also being thrown into that mix.
link |
00:44:41.000
There's a Mike Mentzer concept where he's like,
link |
00:44:42.520
you know, train it, you know,
link |
00:44:43.720
one set and be done for 14 days.
link |
00:44:46.000
I mean, you know, there's such variability
link |
00:44:50.120
between muscle groups
link |
00:44:50.960
and you're linking them all together.
link |
00:44:54.160
I think that coming back and using muscle soreness
link |
00:44:59.240
as a guideline for that is one of the only tools we have
link |
00:45:03.600
in terms of the local level.
link |
00:45:05.260
You know, we don't really have, you know,
link |
00:45:06.920
being able to measure, let's say,
link |
00:45:08.680
CPK levels inside of a muscle would be amazing,
link |
00:45:11.200
you know, at a local level to see how recovered that muscle is
link |
00:45:16.120
but that becomes fairly invasive,
link |
00:45:17.600
at least to my knowledge, it becomes fairly invasive.
link |
00:45:20.040
So what are our tools?
link |
00:45:22.000
I mean, I think that at the basic level,
link |
00:45:23.880
that's the one that most people can relate to
link |
00:45:25.260
and easily identify and then use that as a guideline.
link |
00:45:27.760
And if you're training when you're really sore,
link |
00:45:29.980
it's probably not a great idea.
link |
00:45:32.260
And it's probably a good indication
link |
00:45:33.660
that that muscle is not recovered,
link |
00:45:35.040
but at least hearing what you and I are saying here
link |
00:45:37.260
might be a comfort to the person to say,
link |
00:45:38.600
yeah, it is possible that it's not recovered.
link |
00:45:41.040
Just because 48 hours is the recommendation
link |
00:45:43.400
and just because research points to muscle protein synthesis
link |
00:45:46.020
needing a restimulation, well, maybe not.
link |
00:45:47.980
Maybe you're not necessarily there yet.
link |
00:45:49.880
You're in that, and for that muscle, you're not there yet.
link |
00:45:53.400
So it's all really interesting stuff.
link |
00:45:54.620
But as far as the systemic, you know, recovery,
link |
00:45:59.080
I think there's a lot of ways, you know,
link |
00:46:00.280
people talk about resting heart rate
link |
00:46:01.860
measured in the morning,
link |
00:46:04.040
all different kinds of, you know,
link |
00:46:06.280
core temperature and things like that
link |
00:46:08.140
that might become altered in a state of non-recovery.
link |
00:46:12.440
But grip strength is very, very much tied
link |
00:46:15.280
to performance and recovery.
link |
00:46:18.140
And when I was at the Mets,
link |
00:46:19.520
we used to actually take grip strength measurements
link |
00:46:22.160
as a baseline in spring training all the time.
link |
00:46:24.280
Now, obviously as a baseball player,
link |
00:46:25.640
you're gripping a bat, you're a pitcher,
link |
00:46:26.960
you're gripping a ball, like, you know,
link |
00:46:28.280
having good grip strength is important.
link |
00:46:29.800
So if we've noticed somebody had a very weak grip,
link |
00:46:32.000
it's just a good focal point
link |
00:46:33.440
of a specialized training component for the program.
link |
00:46:35.440
Do you do this every day with those guys?
link |
00:46:37.040
No, in spring training,
link |
00:46:38.520
we do sort of a baseline entry-level measurement,
link |
00:46:41.240
and then we would measure it throughout the season,
link |
00:46:43.200
maybe once every two weeks or three weeks.
link |
00:46:45.140
And, you know, the idea there was to manage the recovery,
link |
00:46:50.040
measure the recovery.
link |
00:46:52.560
But I just gave it away.
link |
00:46:53.400
You know, to determine overall recovery,
link |
00:46:57.080
your grip strength is pretty highly correlated.
link |
00:46:59.080
So we have found that with one of those scales,
link |
00:47:01.980
those old-fashioned bathroom scales
link |
00:47:03.700
at like Bed Bath & Beyond or whatever you can get,
link |
00:47:05.880
which by the way, almost impossible.
link |
00:47:07.780
I believe Jesse and I were searching for the last scale
link |
00:47:09.840
to put in that video, and we almost couldn't find one
link |
00:47:12.200
because everything is like digital and everything,
link |
00:47:14.320
you know, it's like this,
link |
00:47:15.160
I'm looking at the old-fashioned dial controls.
link |
00:47:17.480
It's like old Macintosh computers.
link |
00:47:19.120
There's a huge market for them.
link |
00:47:21.020
And old phones, kids, keep your phones now.
link |
00:47:23.800
In 30 years, the lame phone now will be worth a lot of money.
link |
00:47:27.200
Will be worth a lot.
link |
00:47:28.040
So, you know, I wound up, you know, finding one,
link |
00:47:32.200
and it's a great tool for just squeezing the scale
link |
00:47:37.080
with your hands and seeing what type of output you could get.
link |
00:47:41.460
And I think we all can relate to this
link |
00:47:43.560
when you just visualize, imagine the last time you were sick
link |
00:47:46.940
or just try this the next time you wake up in the morning.
link |
00:47:49.580
When you first wake up in the morning, you're still groggy.
link |
00:47:51.920
Try to squeeze your hand.
link |
00:47:53.160
Try to make a fist as hard as you can.
link |
00:47:54.940
You're going to sit there angry at your fist
link |
00:47:56.800
because it won't contract as hard as you know it can.
link |
00:47:59.680
You don't have the ability to just create the output.
link |
00:48:03.320
And that is because in that state, you're still sleepy.
link |
00:48:06.520
You're still fatigued.
link |
00:48:07.600
You're not even awake at the whole level at this point.
link |
00:48:12.820
Well, that is still an actual phenomenon that happens
link |
00:48:18.600
that a lack of recovery or a lack of wakefulness
link |
00:48:22.280
or whatever you want to say
link |
00:48:23.400
is going to lead to a decreased output there.
link |
00:48:25.440
So when you start to measure that on a daily basis,
link |
00:48:28.240
you can get a pretty good sense of where you're at.
link |
00:48:29.840
And I think when people start to see a drop off
link |
00:48:32.040
of 10% or so or even greater of their grip output,
link |
00:48:37.240
you really should skip the gym that day
link |
00:48:39.240
because I don't think there's much you're going to do there
link |
00:48:41.400
that's going to be that beneficial,
link |
00:48:43.360
even if it is the day to train legs or whatever day it is.
link |
00:48:46.840
I love this tool.
link |
00:48:48.140
It's simple.
link |
00:48:48.980
It's low cost if you can find such a scale.
link |
00:48:51.240
I guess you could also find one of those grippers that,
link |
00:48:53.720
and you can do this in a very non-quantitative way,
link |
00:48:56.320
but better would be a scale
link |
00:48:57.620
where you could actually measure
link |
00:48:58.920
how hard you can squeeze this thing at a given time of day.
link |
00:49:02.720
It draws to mind just a little neuroscience factoid.
link |
00:49:05.080
In the world of circadian neurobiology,
link |
00:49:07.520
one of the consistent findings is that
link |
00:49:10.080
in the middle of your nighttime,
link |
00:49:12.160
they'll wake people up and they'll say, do this test.
link |
00:49:14.800
In the laboratory, they use a different apparatus,
link |
00:49:16.960
but it's essentially the same thing.
link |
00:49:18.600
And in the middle of the night,
link |
00:49:19.440
grip strength is very, very low.
link |
00:49:21.040
And mid-morning, grip strength is high.
link |
00:49:23.240
And as the body temperature goes up into the afternoon,
link |
00:49:25.680
grip strength goes higher and higher and higher,
link |
00:49:27.120
and then it drops off.
link |
00:49:27.960
There's a circadian rhythm and grip temperature.
link |
00:49:29.920
So you probably want to do this
link |
00:49:30.800
at more or less the same time each day if you're gonna use it.
link |
00:49:33.640
But I think it's brilliant in its simplicity
link |
00:49:36.840
and its directness to these upper motor neurons,
link |
00:49:39.080
because that's really what it's assessing.
link |
00:49:40.540
Your ability, again, it's about the ability
link |
00:49:42.360
to contract the muscles hard.
link |
00:49:43.680
If you can't do that,
link |
00:49:44.520
you're not gonna get an effective workout.
link |
00:49:45.480
Yeah, and they also, I mean,
link |
00:49:46.800
there certainly are more sophisticated tools too as a PT.
link |
00:49:50.400
We have hand-grip dynamometers,
link |
00:49:52.680
and we can measure one side at a time too.
link |
00:49:55.840
I'm not really, I'm getting a little bit blinded
link |
00:49:58.600
by the fact that both hands are squeezing into that scale
link |
00:50:00.800
and I don't get really a left-right comparison.
link |
00:50:03.000
But even at that level,
link |
00:50:03.880
that could give you a little bit more detail,
link |
00:50:05.200
but that comes with a cost.
link |
00:50:06.120
Those are pretty expensive devices.
link |
00:50:07.560
But if it's, listen, if you're an athlete,
link |
00:50:10.100
the 200, 300 bucks it costs to have one of those
link |
00:50:13.160
would be well worth the added investment.
link |
00:50:16.000
And I'm sure some of our listeners will want one too,
link |
00:50:17.920
because there are a lot of tech geeks out there.
link |
00:50:20.880
Not tech industry geeks, but people who like tech gear.
link |
00:50:24.280
What's it called again?
link |
00:50:25.280
It's a hand-grip dynamometer.
link |
00:50:26.800
Hand-grip dynamometer.
link |
00:50:29.000
Said by Jeff with a great East Coast accent
link |
00:50:32.240
and by me in a terrible botched West Coast version.
link |
00:50:36.620
Thank you.
link |
00:50:37.460
We'll put that in the show notes also.
link |
00:50:40.440
I think recovery is key.
link |
00:50:41.640
We always hear about sleep.
link |
00:50:42.960
You grow when you sleep and incidentally your brain,
link |
00:50:45.440
you stimulate learning when you're awake, obviously,
link |
00:50:48.240
but the reordering of neural connections happens in sleep.
link |
00:50:51.200
This is why sleep is the way to get smarter,
link |
00:50:53.600
provided you're also doing the learning part.
link |
00:50:55.520
This leaves the way to get stronger,
link |
00:50:56.680
provided you're also doing the training part.
link |
00:50:58.500
You've had some really,
link |
00:50:59.760
you've put out interesting content over the years
link |
00:51:01.700
in terms of even sleep position.
link |
00:51:04.120
One of the major changes that I made to my sleep behavior
link |
00:51:08.300
is to not have the sheets tucked in at the end of the bed.
link |
00:51:11.640
And I'll tell you, this had a profound impact
link |
00:51:13.360
on several things.
link |
00:51:14.200
First of all, my feet have always been
link |
00:51:15.480
the bane of my existence.
link |
00:51:16.560
Broke them a bunch skateboarding.
link |
00:51:18.920
And I noticed when I'd run, I'd get shin splints.
link |
00:51:21.800
And then I started to notice that my feet sort of,
link |
00:51:24.720
you're the PT, they were kind of floppy
link |
00:51:26.480
and as if I was pointing my toes slightly all the time
link |
00:51:29.400
at rest, if I was.
link |
00:51:30.600
And I realized that based on listening to you previously,
link |
00:51:34.500
that my sheets were wrapped tight, not hotel tight.
link |
00:51:37.080
I don't know what that thing in the hotel is.
link |
00:51:39.660
And I started releasing the sheets at the end of the bed.
link |
00:51:43.640
And I also started doing some tibialis work,
link |
00:51:46.440
front shins work, essentially.
link |
00:51:48.620
Changed everything.
link |
00:51:49.880
My back pain from running, my shin splints disappeared,
link |
00:51:52.840
my posture improved.
link |
00:51:53.860
Although my audience will tell me
link |
00:51:55.340
that it still needs improvement.
link |
00:51:56.360
There are always five or 10 people that want.
link |
00:51:57.840
I've actually had chairs sent to our mailing address.
link |
00:52:01.520
Very nice chairs.
link |
00:52:02.800
So I'm trying there.
link |
00:52:05.360
But this is fascinating, right?
link |
00:52:07.800
The position that one sleeps in.
link |
00:52:09.720
I fortunately have never had any shoulder issues,
link |
00:52:12.080
knock on wood.
link |
00:52:13.000
But maybe you could just talk to us a little bit
link |
00:52:15.320
about sleep and sleep position
link |
00:52:17.840
for sake of waking position and movement.
link |
00:52:20.160
Because this, I think, is a very unique
link |
00:52:22.120
and very powerful way to think about sleep.
link |
00:52:25.060
This podcast has done a lot of episodes
link |
00:52:27.100
about keeping the room cool,
link |
00:52:28.660
getting sunlight in your eyes, et cetera,
link |
00:52:29.920
how to get into sleep.
link |
00:52:31.580
But you've talked about physically
link |
00:52:34.440
what positions might be better to sleep in.
link |
00:52:36.520
So please enrich us.
link |
00:52:39.160
Yeah, I mean, first of all,
link |
00:52:41.000
some people's opinions of that type of content is that
link |
00:52:45.600
sleep in the position that's most comfortable
link |
00:52:47.520
so you ensure that you're sleeping.
link |
00:52:49.640
Great, I understand that.
link |
00:52:51.120
We all want to sleep.
link |
00:52:52.040
That's the goal when we put our head on the pillow
link |
00:52:53.440
is to actually fall asleep and wake up in the morning
link |
00:52:55.120
and not know what the hell happened unless you had a dream.
link |
00:52:56.880
But beyond that, there are certainly
link |
00:53:00.800
physical components to sleep that.
link |
00:53:02.640
That is why a lot of times people will wake up and say like,
link |
00:53:05.880
that you can incur pretty serious injuries in sleep.
link |
00:53:08.680
People will wake up and have like a shoulder
link |
00:53:10.600
that did not bother them at all,
link |
00:53:12.260
be humming the next day or even for weeks after
link |
00:53:15.720
because of the one sleep position they put themselves in
link |
00:53:17.960
in a prolonged way.
link |
00:53:19.520
And they happen to have a deep sleep
link |
00:53:20.760
even through the discomfort.
link |
00:53:23.500
That can do actually some damage.
link |
00:53:25.780
So it's understandable that the body can incur
link |
00:53:28.680
some strain and stress if you're sleeping in the wrong way.
link |
00:53:31.680
One of the things I say right off the bat is
link |
00:53:33.880
sleeping on your stomach
link |
00:53:34.920
doesn't really have many benefits.
link |
00:53:36.520
You're putting yourself into a position that is,
link |
00:53:40.780
depending upon the orientation of your mattress
link |
00:53:45.120
or how many pillows you're using,
link |
00:53:46.440
but you're basically putting yourselves
link |
00:53:47.880
into excessive extension of the lumbar spine,
link |
00:53:51.680
which for most people isn't very good.
link |
00:53:53.720
If you're a disc patient,
link |
00:53:56.000
I guess that might be helpful for relocating the disc.
link |
00:53:59.320
But I mean, for the most part,
link |
00:54:01.280
your hands are then usually not at your sides,
link |
00:54:03.520
but they're up under your arms.
link |
00:54:04.880
So you've got them into sort of internal rotation
link |
00:54:06.920
up over elevation in your head.
link |
00:54:08.480
It's just not a great position.
link |
00:54:10.160
You also have to crank your neck for one side or the other
link |
00:54:12.160
in order to breathe,
link |
00:54:13.080
or you're going to be face down straight into the pillow.
link |
00:54:15.480
So I would skip that one.
link |
00:54:17.720
And there's some people that are total belly sleepers.
link |
00:54:20.480
And I would just say, listen,
link |
00:54:22.000
I don't think that is the most healthful,
link |
00:54:25.040
long-term way for you to sleep.
link |
00:54:26.520
Try to adopt a different position.
link |
00:54:28.960
Sleeping on your side oftentimes
link |
00:54:31.800
is also brought along with that.
link |
00:54:34.320
The legs, knees coming up towards the chest,
link |
00:54:36.900
prolonged hip flexion.
link |
00:54:38.040
Listen, we're doing enough of that during the day.
link |
00:54:40.040
We don't need to do it.
link |
00:54:40.880
We don't need to do it like 10 hours or eight hours
link |
00:54:43.800
or something at night like that.
link |
00:54:45.520
And it just is reinforcing.
link |
00:54:48.000
And as we said too, let's say you trained that day.
link |
00:54:51.520
You're just reinforcing muscle shortening overnight.
link |
00:54:54.560
Where the body is healing
link |
00:54:56.020
and trying to create some changes in your body.
link |
00:55:00.640
One of the reasons why I recommend stretching
link |
00:55:02.440
or static stretching prior to going to bed.
link |
00:55:04.520
A lot of people don't really want to do it at that point
link |
00:55:06.360
because it could take 10 minutes, five, 10 minutes,
link |
00:55:08.640
depending upon how many muscles you have to stretch.
link |
00:55:10.240
But it's good to try to establish
link |
00:55:13.220
just longer length temporarily
link |
00:55:15.240
prior to going into a state
link |
00:55:16.520
where you're going to be non-moving and recovering
link |
00:55:19.420
and creating new changes in the muscles.
link |
00:55:22.520
So that kind of, I don't say it doesn't rule out
link |
00:55:27.560
the side sleeper.
link |
00:55:28.640
The side sleeper could be very, very helpful
link |
00:55:30.360
for somebody that has apnea or other conditions.
link |
00:55:34.000
So again, it's not an all or nothing approach,
link |
00:55:36.720
but it just is something that you need to pay attention to.
link |
00:55:40.740
When you are on your back, like you were talking about
link |
00:55:43.160
and your feet are wedged underneath a tight sheets
link |
00:55:47.460
at the end of the bed.
link |
00:55:48.300
And most of us, unless we consciously are pulling them up,
link |
00:55:51.640
don't prefer our beds to have really loose sheets
link |
00:55:53.660
at the end of the bed.
link |
00:55:54.500
It's hard to make the bed in the morning.
link |
00:55:55.680
Right, so it's like, you're going to want to have them tight.
link |
00:55:59.360
Well, I'm saying, as you experienced,
link |
00:56:01.740
you're going to have this prolonged plantar flexion
link |
00:56:07.160
that's going to likely lead to shorter calves over time
link |
00:56:12.840
because you're lacking all that length
link |
00:56:14.840
for that long period of time that you could have
link |
00:56:17.000
if you just loosened up the sheets
link |
00:56:18.720
and allowed your feet to just hang out where they are.
link |
00:56:21.160
Now, the resting position of the ankle
link |
00:56:23.280
is not in dorsiflexion.
link |
00:56:24.320
It's going to be still in some plantar flexion,
link |
00:56:26.040
but not being driven down and pulled down
link |
00:56:28.200
into that position.
link |
00:56:30.000
And I think what happens actually
link |
00:56:31.120
is people who get uncomfortable that way,
link |
00:56:33.680
even in their sleep, will shift away from that
link |
00:56:36.080
by turning either onto their side of their stomach.
link |
00:56:37.880
So there's definitely an impact of the body position
link |
00:56:41.160
in sleep and figuring out the best way
link |
00:56:43.620
that you can still sleep, of course, and get your rest,
link |
00:56:46.620
but have a mindful eye towards what it's doing to your body
link |
00:56:49.360
and choose the one that's least abrasive to your body
link |
00:56:53.460
is the way you should go.
link |
00:56:55.120
Terrific, and again, it's really helped me.
link |
00:56:57.120
And I am a big believer, based on good science
link |
00:57:01.800
out of Stanford and elsewhere,
link |
00:57:03.960
that as much as we can be nasal breathers in sleep,
link |
00:57:06.800
we probably should be.
link |
00:57:07.620
I don't know if you've done any content yet
link |
00:57:09.840
about taping the mouth shut with some medical tape,
link |
00:57:12.360
but the benefits of nasal breathing and sleep
link |
00:57:15.300
are pretty tremendous,
link |
00:57:16.140
but it takes a little bit of training for people to do.
link |
00:57:18.060
And the training is very simple.
link |
00:57:19.280
It's a little piece of medical tape.
link |
00:57:21.040
So again, a topic for another time.
link |
00:57:24.120
I'm glad you mentioned stretching.
link |
00:57:25.320
I was going to ask about stretching a little bit later,
link |
00:57:26.900
but let's talk about stretching.
link |
00:57:29.200
When's the best time to stretch
link |
00:57:30.680
for particular types of results?
link |
00:57:33.320
And maybe you could define
link |
00:57:34.200
some of the different types of stretching.
link |
00:57:36.080
So you just mentioned a little bit of,
link |
00:57:38.840
would you call it light stretching or,
link |
00:57:41.080
okay, I'm completely naive here on stretching.
link |
00:57:43.800
So let me just say, I can think of stretching
link |
00:57:45.300
where I hold the stretch and really try and lengthen,
link |
00:57:49.560
in air quotes, folks.
link |
00:57:50.600
I don't want the PTs jumping all over.
link |
00:57:52.300
I don't know what it is,
link |
00:57:53.140
but nutrition and the PTs online are really,
link |
00:57:55.480
they've got pitchforks in both hands, academics.
link |
00:57:58.280
That's a recent evolution, I think, for sure.
link |
00:58:00.840
And not the nutrition as much,
link |
00:58:01.820
but the PTs have become a little bit angry these days.
link |
00:58:04.000
I see, well, I always say
link |
00:58:05.000
with feelings of powerlessness comes aggression.
link |
00:58:08.360
Remember that, folks.
link |
00:58:09.520
So in any case, they're stretching where I'm,
link |
00:58:14.520
you know, trying to consciously lengthen,
link |
00:58:18.320
again, in air quotes, the muscle.
link |
00:58:20.160
I'm not yanking on the limb or bobbing up and down.
link |
00:58:23.320
Maybe you could define the different types
link |
00:58:24.500
of stretching for people.
link |
00:58:25.340
Maybe give us some rough guidelines
link |
00:58:27.320
about whether or not to do it cold or warm,
link |
00:58:28.920
before training, after training, et cetera.
link |
00:58:31.060
So yeah, there's obviously,
link |
00:58:32.840
there's a lot of different types of stretching.
link |
00:58:34.400
They could get even to, you know,
link |
00:58:35.880
PNF stretching and things that are a little bit more,
link |
00:58:39.240
you know, niche, but like in general,
link |
00:58:41.340
the two basic forms of stretching
link |
00:58:42.840
are active stretching and passive stretching.
link |
00:58:44.860
And your, you know, your dynamic work
link |
00:58:48.400
and your passive stretching is done
link |
00:58:51.000
with the goal of trying to create an increase
link |
00:58:54.540
in the flexibility of the muscle.
link |
00:58:57.240
So whether you're actually increasing
link |
00:58:58.840
the length of that muscle, you know,
link |
00:59:00.200
more so what you're doing is increasing the resistance
link |
00:59:02.760
or decreasing the resistance of that muscle
link |
00:59:04.480
to want to stay at a certain level of flexibility.
link |
00:59:07.880
So when we can sort of take the brakes off
link |
00:59:10.560
and allow that muscle to allow us more range of motion,
link |
00:59:14.320
we're inherently increasing flexibility
link |
00:59:16.200
without necessarily having to increase
link |
00:59:17.640
the length of that muscle.
link |
00:59:20.380
That is usually done at a time far away from your workout
link |
00:59:23.860
because they have shown where this type of stretching
link |
00:59:26.740
done prior to an activity.
link |
00:59:28.680
And it could be like a structured activity,
link |
00:59:31.680
like lifting, or it could be a little bit less structured,
link |
00:59:35.720
like competing in a sport in a spontaneous type way.
link |
00:59:39.360
That there is a period of recalibration
link |
00:59:43.280
that is needed after doing this,
link |
00:59:45.640
because you're disrupting the length tension relationship
link |
00:59:47.880
of the muscle that causes you to not necessarily
link |
00:59:51.760
be able to rely on these, I've talked about before,
link |
00:59:54.580
stored motor engrams in your mind in terms of,
link |
00:59:57.220
this is the pattern for how I swing a golf club, say.
link |
00:59:59.880
You know, and now introducing a little bit of flexibility
link |
01:00:03.860
or added flexibility or range
link |
01:00:05.380
because of the stretching I did before,
link |
01:00:07.400
it takes maybe a whole or two or three to match up again.
link |
01:00:12.060
Oh, this is what he's trying to do,
link |
01:00:13.800
that golf swing thing that I remembered again.
link |
01:00:15.840
Like it's not remembering that every component,
link |
01:00:18.300
like I have to bend my right wrist back 10 degrees
link |
01:00:21.200
and then I have to bend my elbow and I have to break,
link |
01:00:23.360
like your body stores these patterns for motor efficiency.
link |
01:00:26.260
So, and when I have to start matching up that stored pattern
link |
01:00:29.560
with what's feeling new because of the increased range,
link |
01:00:32.680
I can impair performance.
link |
01:00:33.880
And again, it could happen even in a gym workout
link |
01:00:36.240
where you're talking about your first, second set,
link |
01:00:37.800
third set, where maybe the repercussions aren't as big
link |
01:00:41.280
because I'll just do a few extra sets.
link |
01:00:43.160
But in performance, if you screw up your first three rounds,
link |
01:00:45.280
you're playing on a PGA tour and you shoot,
link |
01:00:46.720
you know, you're six over after three, you're done, you know?
link |
01:00:49.800
So I think it matters there.
link |
01:00:52.800
As far as the dynamic, you know, so we relegate that,
link |
01:00:55.660
as I mentioned, sort of towards the end of the day,
link |
01:00:57.080
when it's not going to impact performance,
link |
01:00:59.280
but even maybe have the additional benefit
link |
01:01:01.840
of creating the feeling of length or the increase
link |
01:01:06.240
or decrease in resistance to this length
link |
01:01:09.000
at a time when I know my body is going to try to tend
link |
01:01:11.920
to heal and heal shorter, never longer, but heal shorter.
link |
01:01:14.900
So if I can introduce a little bit of that extra length
link |
01:01:17.840
or decreased resistance to that length,
link |
01:01:20.080
it's a better time to do it.
link |
01:01:21.200
So I think it promotes a better recovery.
link |
01:01:25.160
If I want to-
link |
01:01:26.240
Sorry to interrupt.
link |
01:01:27.080
So stretching later in the day,
link |
01:01:29.200
because I'm intrigued by this concept of heal shorter.
link |
01:01:33.040
So part of the healing and recovery process
link |
01:01:34.800
means a shortening of the muscles.
link |
01:01:35.960
This is the tensing up in sleep.
link |
01:01:37.920
Could you elaborate just a bit on that
link |
01:01:39.360
and then sorry to break your flow, but then to continue?
link |
01:01:41.400
No, just basically, you know, what's been shown
link |
01:01:43.360
is that when the repair process,
link |
01:01:46.720
muscular repair from let's say strength training
link |
01:01:49.360
during the day,
link |
01:01:50.200
the repair process usually results in a muscle
link |
01:01:52.440
that is slightly shorter rather than increased in length.
link |
01:01:55.840
You know, it's just that it's, you know,
link |
01:01:57.560
muscles prefer to sort of ratchet their way down
link |
01:02:00.920
into that contraction and then maintain
link |
01:02:05.360
that more comfortable length tension relationship.
link |
01:02:08.360
So when you're sleeping, it tends to err on the side
link |
01:02:11.920
of shorter rather than longer,
link |
01:02:13.080
when ideally we don't really want that.
link |
01:02:15.040
We want to maintain as much of that length
link |
01:02:17.960
because with more length, we actually have more leverage,
link |
01:02:21.120
right, that muscle has more leverage to contract.
link |
01:02:23.240
If it was all the way contracted, you know,
link |
01:02:24.960
you really can't obviously, you know,
link |
01:02:26.040
generate much force in a muscle
link |
01:02:27.360
that's already maximally contracted.
link |
01:02:29.600
So I think we want to do something that we,
link |
01:02:33.080
whatever we can, whatever little weapons we have
link |
01:02:35.160
in our arsenal that could allow us to do this
link |
01:02:37.640
prior to sleep.
link |
01:02:39.520
And again, it's just making a conscious choice
link |
01:02:42.360
to do it at a time of the day
link |
01:02:43.360
that makes a little bit more sense.
link |
01:02:45.000
Dynamic stretching is really not done for that purpose
link |
01:02:48.760
of trying to create any type of feeling of act
link |
01:02:54.000
or increasing the potential length,
link |
01:02:56.360
as you said, of the muscle,
link |
01:02:57.440
but more so the readiness of the muscle to perform
link |
01:03:00.040
and increasing, you know, exploring the ends
link |
01:03:03.480
of that range of motion in a more dynamic way
link |
01:03:05.840
so you're not hanging out there
link |
01:03:07.560
and disrupting that length tension relationship
link |
01:03:09.560
but just sort of touching the ends of those barriers
link |
01:03:12.800
so that when you feel movement again,
link |
01:03:15.320
it feels looser, it feels more ready.
link |
01:03:17.400
And obviously at the same time, warming up, blood flow,
link |
01:03:20.840
all the benefits we get from just warming up in general.
link |
01:03:23.560
So like, you know, that's the series
link |
01:03:25.600
you've probably seen a bunch of times,
link |
01:03:26.680
but like, you know, leg swings and, you know,
link |
01:03:30.080
butt kicks and, you know, lunge, walking lunges
link |
01:03:33.040
and all types of drills.
link |
01:03:34.320
Toe touches.
link |
01:03:35.160
Toe touches, all those kinds of drills,
link |
01:03:36.800
those active stretching drills or, you know,
link |
01:03:38.760
lunging with rotations of the upper body
link |
01:03:40.960
to try to get some of the thoracic spine involved too.
link |
01:03:43.160
Those are the drills that people will do
link |
01:03:44.720
prior to training that are both excitatory
link |
01:03:47.640
in terms of just the nervous system,
link |
01:03:49.360
but also helpful for just the general warmup of the body
link |
01:03:52.560
because of the blood flow,
link |
01:03:53.600
but from a muscle readiness standpoint,
link |
01:03:55.400
not impairing the performance while at the same time
link |
01:03:59.320
exploring the increased ranges.
link |
01:04:01.400
Because as you know, the first toe touch you do
link |
01:04:04.120
is not as high as the last toe touch you do.
link |
01:04:05.800
For me, it doesn't even include the toe.
link |
01:04:07.480
Right, the shin touch, knee touch.
link |
01:04:09.200
Toe touch attempt.
link |
01:04:10.120
Right, right, so like, you know,
link |
01:04:11.400
those are going to improve with each subsequent rep
link |
01:04:14.440
and I think that's what people actually,
link |
01:04:15.920
like when you can see those actual changes
link |
01:04:19.360
from rep one to rep seven, you just feel ready.
link |
01:04:22.520
You feel more alert and ready to go in your workout.
link |
01:04:25.200
So the dynamic type of stretching,
link |
01:04:27.840
and I mentioned earlier on, you know,
link |
01:04:29.360
like what I've had to do to sort of increase
link |
01:04:31.680
my warmup focus, you know,
link |
01:04:33.240
I think that's more of what I try to do these days.
link |
01:04:36.040
I try to be a little bit more alert to the fact that,
link |
01:04:39.120
you know, my body's not ready.
link |
01:04:40.240
When I was working with Antonio Brown,
link |
01:04:42.040
I remember like he would spend 20 minutes,
link |
01:04:44.880
30 minutes on all dynamic work.
link |
01:04:47.280
And I've never seen anybody spend that long
link |
01:04:49.600
on their dynamic work,
link |
01:04:50.640
but like he said, he just didn't feel right and ready to go
link |
01:04:55.120
unless he did a lot of that.
link |
01:04:56.960
And I mean, you know, his dynamic stretching routine
link |
01:05:00.160
would be a workout for most everybody.
link |
01:05:02.240
You know, it's crazy how much he did.
link |
01:05:04.560
These pro athletes are amazing
link |
01:05:06.160
and you've had the great fortune of working with
link |
01:05:08.920
and improving their abilities.
link |
01:05:12.120
But I can only imagine,
link |
01:05:13.920
cause I also imagine he's pretty strong in the gym also.
link |
01:05:16.680
I mean, you know, it always amazes me
link |
01:05:19.080
the guys that make it to that level,
link |
01:05:20.480
no matter what sport they do,
link |
01:05:22.480
they're so gifted in everything, you know,
link |
01:05:24.360
like David Wright used to make me laugh all the time
link |
01:05:27.280
with the Mets because no matter what I ping pong,
link |
01:05:31.680
you know, like anything,
link |
01:05:33.000
because of his hand-eye coordination,
link |
01:05:34.480
like anything, you know, great at.
link |
01:05:37.120
Jump rope, I remember he hadn't done a lot of jump rope
link |
01:05:39.800
and I think jump rope is one of the best things
link |
01:05:43.200
you could do from a conditioning standpoint.
link |
01:05:44.920
It's actually, it's fairly interesting.
link |
01:05:46.440
It's not just, you know,
link |
01:05:48.240
it's not too harsh on the joints,
link |
01:05:50.600
depending on, you know, even though it's a ballistic move.
link |
01:05:52.760
And he wasn't, I have to admit, you know,
link |
01:05:55.400
if you listen to this, he's going to want to kill me,
link |
01:05:56.800
but I was better at him than at jump roping.
link |
01:05:59.400
One of the only things I could do.
link |
01:06:00.800
And then I gave him about five days
link |
01:06:02.880
and he completely blew me out of the water
link |
01:06:04.640
to the point where I could never keep up with him anymore.
link |
01:06:06.840
He made it look effortless.
link |
01:06:08.240
It's like, that's where the athlete in someone comes out.
link |
01:06:11.120
No matter what they pick up, they're good at it.
link |
01:06:13.320
And I think that when you see guys like this in the gym,
link |
01:06:15.560
like their strength levels tend to be pretty damn good
link |
01:06:17.680
and they're in their abilities, their coordination,
link |
01:06:19.520
their everything just tends to sort of be good
link |
01:06:21.960
at that level, you know, and it sort of amazes me
link |
01:06:24.320
why those guys can go pick up a golf club, you know,
link |
01:06:26.640
and go shoot 72, you know,
link |
01:06:28.920
and having never really played, you know,
link |
01:06:31.000
they're just naturally good at whatever they do.
link |
01:06:33.920
Yeah, I have a couple,
link |
01:06:34.760
I'm smiling because I have a couple of really close friends
link |
01:06:37.480
who did a number of years,
link |
01:06:38.800
some several decades in the SEAL teams.
link |
01:06:40.760
And I don't know that their skill level at everything
link |
01:06:43.280
is so high as you're describing for athletes,
link |
01:06:45.520
but their level of competitiveness is beyond.
link |
01:06:48.480
I ocean swim with one.
link |
01:06:49.560
There's no chance that I'm going to, you know,
link |
01:06:51.400
out swim Pat ever, ever.
link |
01:06:53.440
He actually goes back and forth sometimes
link |
01:06:54.960
just to check up on me, which I appreciate.
link |
01:06:57.480
Thank you, Pat.
link |
01:06:58.920
I haven't drowned yet, but the, but in addition to that,
link |
01:07:01.960
you know, we could play horseshoes
link |
01:07:03.520
and it's like this switch that just flips on.
link |
01:07:05.640
Like he's going to murder me, horseshoes,
link |
01:07:07.360
and a very nice guy, right?
link |
01:07:08.600
In general, they tend to be very nice,
link |
01:07:09.800
but the level of competitiveness is kind of unreal.
link |
01:07:12.480
They're selected for it.
link |
01:07:13.400
They're trying to beat themselves.
link |
01:07:14.400
They're not even trying to beat you.
link |
01:07:15.320
That's right.
link |
01:07:16.160
I'm not even in the competition.
link |
01:07:16.980
You're not even in the competition.
link |
01:07:17.820
You're not even there.
link |
01:07:18.640
Yeah, exactly.
link |
01:07:19.480
Thank you.
link |
01:07:20.600
Now I won't feel so bad or worse.
link |
01:07:24.000
It's true.
link |
01:07:24.840
It's, it's a remarkable thing.
link |
01:07:25.660
I'm glad you mentioned jump roping.
link |
01:07:26.720
I used to skip rope for warmup for boxing, you know,
link |
01:07:30.040
like three, three minute rounds or something like that.
link |
01:07:33.840
But I'm glad you brought it up because skipping rope
link |
01:07:36.960
is something that obviously has a cardiovascular component.
link |
01:07:40.600
There's the conditioning component, there's timing,
link |
01:07:42.280
and it is kind of interesting, right?
link |
01:07:43.840
You can, it's frustrating when you don't get it,
link |
01:07:45.880
especially when it whips you on the ear,
link |
01:07:47.120
if you're using a proper rope.
link |
01:07:48.480
I'm just curious if you could just give us a quick
link |
01:07:50.800
skipping rope one-on-one.
link |
01:07:51.840
Do you like to see people jumping with both feet and toes?
link |
01:07:54.800
We'll link to a video if there was one and I missed it.
link |
01:07:57.640
Do you like to see people doing high knees?
link |
01:07:59.120
Do you like people basically like shuffling?
link |
01:08:01.920
You want to see people doing double dutch?
link |
01:08:03.200
What do you want to see people doing over time?
link |
01:08:05.480
All of the above, maybe not the double dutch,
link |
01:08:07.200
but all of the above.
link |
01:08:08.320
I mean, I think that that's the cool thing about it, right?
link |
01:08:10.560
Like once we sort of master the skill,
link |
01:08:12.240
cause for all of us,
link |
01:08:13.320
that first jump with the two feet going together
link |
01:08:16.320
is a challenge.
link |
01:08:17.160
Cause you just got to time that rope,
link |
01:08:18.460
you got to time your jump.
link |
01:08:19.640
And then we get bored as we often do as humans,
link |
01:08:22.280
we get bored with what we can do
link |
01:08:23.520
and want to take on new challenges.
link |
01:08:24.920
So then it becomes one leg at a time,
link |
01:08:26.580
or then it becomes side to side hops, right?
link |
01:08:29.480
All of those things are beneficial,
link |
01:08:31.920
I believe neurologically to enhancing the ability
link |
01:08:34.640
to do the skill as a whole,
link |
01:08:35.920
but also just because I'm such a believer in training
link |
01:08:40.000
in all three planes.
link |
01:08:40.960
So like just doing straight up and down
link |
01:08:43.580
versus now I can do frontal plane side to side motion.
link |
01:08:46.560
And then I can even do small little twists
link |
01:08:48.760
or corkscrews we call them.
link |
01:08:50.700
It requires a different,
link |
01:08:51.760
you would know more about it better than I do.
link |
01:08:53.440
It requires different neurological patterns
link |
01:08:56.600
to be able to coordinate that
link |
01:08:58.040
because you're changing the orientation
link |
01:08:59.840
of your body and space.
link |
01:09:00.720
So it's not just that I'm changing the exercise,
link |
01:09:03.120
but I'm changing how my body interprets that exercise
link |
01:09:06.000
because what's happening to my body and space.
link |
01:09:07.960
So I love, you know, whatever people wind up doing,
link |
01:09:12.340
but I am amazed.
link |
01:09:14.440
There are people,
link |
01:09:15.580
I just started following this young woman on Instagram
link |
01:09:17.800
who is like, I'll give her a plug.
link |
01:09:20.920
I think it's like Anna Skips or something.
link |
01:09:22.340
And she is ridiculous.
link |
01:09:24.920
Like I watch her and I'm like mesmerized
link |
01:09:26.960
at what she can do with the rope.
link |
01:09:28.320
You know, it's like, is an extremely athletic endeavor
link |
01:09:31.920
when it gets to be at that level
link |
01:09:33.240
in the speed and the precision in the, you know,
link |
01:09:35.880
and you know, I think one of the goals
link |
01:09:38.140
that you want to be able to have is
link |
01:09:40.440
to where you're feeling as if you're almost
link |
01:09:43.080
effortlessly dancing without a rope,
link |
01:09:45.220
like where you're just bouncing off
link |
01:09:46.720
of the ball of your foot.
link |
01:09:48.960
And it's an important skill to learn too,
link |
01:09:50.960
whether you go back to run or, you know,
link |
01:09:53.960
or even jog, right?
link |
01:09:55.440
Just like, you know, more casual running.
link |
01:09:57.680
Learning how to land is so important.
link |
01:10:00.280
One of the drills that people should try
link |
01:10:02.640
is like try to jump on your heels.
link |
01:10:05.220
So just stand up, pull your toes off the ground, right?
link |
01:10:07.920
And just jump from your heels and land on your heels.
link |
01:10:10.540
You'll feel it in your jaw.
link |
01:10:12.120
You'll literally feel your jaw rattle
link |
01:10:13.720
when you land on your heels.
link |
01:10:14.840
There is no shock absorption capabilities
link |
01:10:16.940
through your heels.
link |
01:10:17.880
Meantime, a lot of people land on their heels a lot
link |
01:10:21.380
when they run.
link |
01:10:22.640
And you're just, your body's not built
link |
01:10:24.400
to absorb the forces like the ball of your foot could.
link |
01:10:26.960
It's really built as a spring.
link |
01:10:28.960
And the foot is, to me, as a physical therapist,
link |
01:10:31.960
the foot has always been one of the most amazing,
link |
01:10:33.720
you know, you talk about having bad feet.
link |
01:10:35.080
I have flat feet.
link |
01:10:36.360
It looks like I got flippers if I took my shoes off,
link |
01:10:39.000
like when I'm wearing scuba fins.
link |
01:10:41.440
There is no adaptability of that foot to the surface.
link |
01:10:46.440
You know, when it's completely caved
link |
01:10:48.860
and flattened like that,
link |
01:10:50.220
the job of the foot is to be adaptable.
link |
01:10:53.400
Well, there is, maybe there is some adaptability
link |
01:10:55.260
because it's so floppy.
link |
01:10:56.660
But at the same time, at some point,
link |
01:10:58.140
that critical juncture,
link |
01:10:59.060
when you're going to then step through
link |
01:11:00.680
and you need to be able to push off,
link |
01:11:02.540
the foot has to actually change this in the mid-foot itself
link |
01:11:05.700
to become a rigid lever, as they call it.
link |
01:11:08.380
You're going from a mobile adapter to a rigid lever.
link |
01:11:11.620
That rigid lever literally locks up the mid-tarsal joint
link |
01:11:14.800
to become solid so that you can push off of it
link |
01:11:18.100
with leverage.
link |
01:11:19.000
If you lack that capability,
link |
01:11:21.020
all those stresses that are supposed to be borne
link |
01:11:23.220
by the foot go up into the ankle, into the knee,
link |
01:11:25.180
into the hip, into the low back.
link |
01:11:27.060
So learning how to land and start to train your body
link |
01:11:31.940
to experience ground reaction forces the right way
link |
01:11:37.100
is so critical to all other function
link |
01:11:40.380
and all other disability up the kinetic chain.
link |
01:11:43.180
And jumping rope is like one of the best ways
link |
01:11:45.380
to learn how to do that.
link |
01:11:46.420
Great, I own a jump rope.
link |
01:11:48.580
I love doing it in the morning
link |
01:11:50.420
while I get sunlight in my eyes.
link |
01:11:51.860
It's actually a protocol I picked up from Tim Ferriss
link |
01:11:55.700
who mentioned, because listeners of my podcast
link |
01:11:58.260
know I'm like a broken record with get sunlight
link |
01:12:00.340
in your eyes, even through cloud cover.
link |
01:12:02.180
It just sets your sleep rhythms and your waking rhythms,
link |
01:12:04.900
the yada yada, on and on.
link |
01:12:07.380
But sometimes they'd be kind of boring for people
link |
01:12:09.300
and I want to get them off their phone.
link |
01:12:10.480
So jumping rope is also just a great way to wake up.
link |
01:12:12.740
So jumping rope can be the cardio workout,
link |
01:12:17.540
the 15 or 30 minutes.
link |
01:12:19.300
Definitely.
link |
01:12:20.140
And there's sort of that hybrid
link |
01:12:21.180
that we were talking about before of like,
link |
01:12:23.180
no, you're not necessarily dropping down to the ground
link |
01:12:25.660
and doing burpees, but I just look at it
link |
01:12:27.220
as a more athletic endeavor
link |
01:12:29.060
because of the coordination involved
link |
01:12:30.900
than just simply walking or jogging.
link |
01:12:33.140
Yeah, and it's not much of a equipment requirement,
link |
01:12:36.740
very minimal cost.
link |
01:12:38.060
You could even use a rope or something if you...
link |
01:12:40.940
Although we even instruct people that you use no rope
link |
01:12:43.740
and just pretend, and just move the arms, right?
link |
01:12:46.500
You're never going to hit the rope, which is good,
link |
01:12:49.140
but at the same time,
link |
01:12:50.100
so you're never going to know if you're doing it wrong,
link |
01:12:51.640
but at least you can move through that
link |
01:12:53.580
and get the same benefits through the feet.
link |
01:12:55.300
I love it.
link |
01:12:56.140
I love it.
link |
01:12:57.400
I told myself before sitting down with you today
link |
01:13:00.000
that I wasn't going to focus on specific exercises
link |
01:13:02.580
because there's such a wealth of incredible content
link |
01:13:05.380
that you put out there that people could just put
link |
01:13:06.980
into YouTube or elsewhere and arrive at the proper way
link |
01:13:10.360
to do a chin or a dip or for whatever purpose,
link |
01:13:13.420
but there's one exercise in one particular motion
link |
01:13:16.900
that I'd like to discuss for a moment
link |
01:13:19.380
because I believe that learning about this cautionary note
link |
01:13:23.820
from you is one of the reasons
link |
01:13:26.820
that I've maintained steady training for 30 years
link |
01:13:29.980
with no major injury, knock on wood,
link |
01:13:33.060
and that's the upright row.
link |
01:13:35.940
One thing that, whether or not people weight train or not-
link |
01:13:39.060
Do we censor this podcast?
link |
01:13:40.580
Are we censoring to be beeped this out or no?
link |
01:13:42.100
Oh, do you get beef about this?
link |
01:13:46.180
You know what?
link |
01:13:47.420
We always get beef in any social media platform
link |
01:13:50.180
we ever put out, but like, no, I get some from it,
link |
01:13:52.900
but I'm fully prepared to defend myself.
link |
01:13:56.740
But here's the reason for asking about this.
link |
01:13:58.460
I never really cared much for upright rows.
link |
01:14:00.820
It's not an exercise I tend to do,
link |
01:14:02.340
but one thing that's apparent in all my colleagues
link |
01:14:05.360
and every child I see and every adult I see
link |
01:14:07.660
is that almost everybody is in inward rotation now.
link |
01:14:11.620
So folks, I think I learned this from you also,
link |
01:14:14.220
if you stand up straight
link |
01:14:15.140
and then you just point your thumbs out,
link |
01:14:17.140
like a thumbs up, but your hands are down,
link |
01:14:19.580
you're pointing your thumbs straight out,
link |
01:14:21.340
ideally they would go straight out.
link |
01:14:23.120
Most people, the thumbs are gonna be pointing
link |
01:14:24.500
toward one another
link |
01:14:25.340
because most people are starting to look somewhere
link |
01:14:26.920
between a non-human primate and a melted candle.
link |
01:14:31.920
You know, bent at the hips, et cetera, from too much sitting.
link |
01:14:34.760
We're all sitting, we're in inward rotation,
link |
01:14:36.960
but I learned from you that the upright row
link |
01:14:39.560
compromises some important aspects
link |
01:14:42.160
of our shoulder mechanics
link |
01:14:44.200
and can be actually sort of a dangerous movement
link |
01:14:46.400
in some ways.
link |
01:14:47.240
I'm sure there's a safe way for people to do it,
link |
01:14:49.040
but so I've always made it a point now
link |
01:14:51.840
on the basis of this advice to A, not do upright rows,
link |
01:14:55.840
but I wasn't doing them before,
link |
01:14:56.800
but to really strive for upright rows
link |
01:14:59.320
but I wasn't doing them before, but to really strive for
link |
01:15:02.720
external rotation on things like bench dips
link |
01:15:05.720
on a number of different things.
link |
01:15:07.320
Whenever I can, I try and go into external rotation
link |
01:15:09.800
and provide, you know, without looking like an idiot
link |
01:15:11.640
walking around with my palms facing outward.
link |
01:15:13.740
Please tell us about internal external rotation.
link |
01:15:17.680
The upright row is one aspect of that,
link |
01:15:20.060
but why this is so important, not just for weight training,
link |
01:15:23.720
but as in terms of posture and mechanics
link |
01:15:26.380
and not looking like a melted candle
link |
01:15:29.700
or partially melted candle.
link |
01:15:31.680
I actually love it.
link |
01:15:32.520
I am happy to talk about it
link |
01:15:34.760
because I love the shoulder as a joint.
link |
01:15:37.320
I think PTs tend to fall in love with certain areas
link |
01:15:39.880
and the shoulder is one of the cool areas for me
link |
01:15:41.760
and it's like the foot is,
link |
01:15:42.740
but like the shoulder has the most mobility in the body
link |
01:15:46.540
of any joint, but it's also got the least stability, right?
link |
01:15:49.480
There's always that trade off of mobility and stability.
link |
01:15:52.120
So your stability comes from, you know, certain muscle groups
link |
01:15:57.680
and one of the ones that the only muscle group
link |
01:15:59.920
that actually externally rotates the shoulder
link |
01:16:02.000
is going to be the rotator cuff, okay?
link |
01:16:03.640
And unless you were devoted to training
link |
01:16:06.160
through external rotation and exercises
link |
01:16:08.400
that are going to externally rotate the shoulder,
link |
01:16:11.400
you're not training that function.
link |
01:16:13.640
And it's so easy for us in everyday life,
link |
01:16:17.020
especially those that aren't training
link |
01:16:18.600
to not ever really undergo any of those stresses
link |
01:16:21.440
that could be beneficial to counteracting
link |
01:16:23.560
what happens freely and naturally,
link |
01:16:25.800
which is internal rotation.
link |
01:16:27.100
So when you think about the imbalance created just by nature
link |
01:16:30.040
and how we live our lives,
link |
01:16:31.440
internal rotation far, far, far outweighs external rotation.
link |
01:16:35.820
So you need to address it.
link |
01:16:37.640
And the reason why you need to address it
link |
01:16:39.000
is because you need to normalize
link |
01:16:40.760
those biomechanics to the shoulder
link |
01:16:42.220
if you want their long-term health.
link |
01:16:43.760
And one of the functions of the shoulder
link |
01:16:45.440
is to raise our arm up over our head.
link |
01:16:47.360
And if we do that from an internally rotated position,
link |
01:16:50.880
we're going to have a higher likelihood
link |
01:16:53.640
of creating stress inside that joint.
link |
01:16:55.760
Funny thing is, I talked about before,
link |
01:16:57.320
my PT brethren can be somewhat angry these days.
link |
01:17:01.660
I don't know what happened, but fairly angry.
link |
01:17:03.920
They want to discredit the existence
link |
01:17:06.760
of something like shoulder impingement,
link |
01:17:09.020
which I don't know how, I mean, certain studies,
link |
01:17:12.800
look at, we all read studies
link |
01:17:14.580
and studies will say one thing one day
link |
01:17:16.960
and potentially conflict entirely in a different direction.
link |
01:17:19.720
Some studies will point to the non-existence
link |
01:17:21.520
of a shoulder impingement.
link |
01:17:24.040
Meanwhile, we have thankfully digital motion x-rays
link |
01:17:28.600
that will literally show the impingement occur
link |
01:17:31.480
in real time, in real function.
link |
01:17:33.640
And that's one of the limitations,
link |
01:17:34.680
I'm off on a tangent here,
link |
01:17:35.560
but like those types of x-rays
link |
01:17:37.120
or that type of fluoroscopy that we have nowadays,
link |
01:17:39.320
like gives us such insight that we never had before
link |
01:17:41.800
because we're taking static x-rays
link |
01:17:43.280
of someone laying down on a table.
link |
01:17:44.860
You know, when I want to see what happens
link |
01:17:46.120
when he actually raised my arm up over my head in function
link |
01:17:48.820
and the tools now exist to do that,
link |
01:17:51.300
we see the problems occurring
link |
01:17:53.480
because in order to get normal mechanics
link |
01:17:56.800
and free up the joint maximally inside,
link |
01:17:59.240
you need to externally rotate as you raise the arm up.
link |
01:18:02.440
So if your muscles aren't firing
link |
01:18:04.520
and they're not necessarily as strong
link |
01:18:07.800
as the internal rotation bias that pulls them in,
link |
01:18:10.800
you're asking for trouble every time you do that.
link |
01:18:12.700
Well, this exercise is literally putting you
link |
01:18:16.560
in elevation and internal rotation.
link |
01:18:18.440
And if you were to walk into a PT office
link |
01:18:20.600
and someone said, I think he's got an impingement,
link |
01:18:22.600
will you diagnose him?
link |
01:18:23.520
There's a test called a Hawkins Kennedy test.
link |
01:18:25.440
And I would put you in the position,
link |
01:18:27.240
I know we're not visible at this point through the podcast,
link |
01:18:29.720
but I'll put you in this position here
link |
01:18:31.640
where I have your arm elevated
link |
01:18:33.400
and your hand pretty much under your chin
link |
01:18:35.880
pushing downward on that
link |
01:18:37.160
to create that internal shoulder rotation.
link |
01:18:38.960
Pretty much the exact position that we're in
link |
01:18:40.760
when we're holding a bar in an upright row.
link |
01:18:43.600
Some will say, well, just don't go so high,
link |
01:18:45.420
go only up to the level of the chest,
link |
01:18:46.940
but you're still in this internally rotated position.
link |
01:18:49.840
The thing that I think frustrates me the most
link |
01:18:51.880
about the exercise is that I have an alternative
link |
01:18:55.280
and the alternative does the same thing
link |
01:18:56.820
in terms of helping the muscles grow
link |
01:18:58.880
by simply fixing the biomechanics of the exercise,
link |
01:19:01.240
but just allowing the hands to go higher than the elbows.
link |
01:19:03.740
So instead of the elbows being higher than the hand,
link |
01:19:06.080
which drives you into internal rotation,
link |
01:19:08.080
if the elbow is lower than the hand,
link |
01:19:10.180
the hand being higher here, I'm in external rotation.
link |
01:19:13.320
And I could do something called a high pull
link |
01:19:15.580
and still get the same abduction of the arm
link |
01:19:18.280
and still get the same benefits
link |
01:19:19.680
of the shoulders, the delts and the traps
link |
01:19:21.680
without having to undergo any of the stresses
link |
01:19:23.680
that would come from the somewhat awkward movement
link |
01:19:26.340
of an upright row.
link |
01:19:27.680
And for those listening,
link |
01:19:29.040
we'll put a link to a short clip of what this looks like,
link |
01:19:31.480
but basically what Jeff is doing
link |
01:19:33.020
and tell me if I'm describing this incorrectly or correctly.
link |
01:19:35.520
Jeff is taking your two thumbs and pointing behind you
link |
01:19:38.520
and elbows up kind of near the chin
link |
01:19:41.380
and pointing behind you, like, oh, headed that way,
link |
01:19:43.300
like somebody directing the airplane,
link |
01:19:44.720
like come back, come back, come back.
link |
01:19:46.800
I forget what they call that.
link |
01:19:47.760
I think it's called semaphorin,
link |
01:19:49.560
is the action of like where they direct the planes
link |
01:19:52.000
or something, the flags or whatever.
link |
01:19:53.560
Someone will of course tell me I'm wrong about that too,
link |
01:19:55.840
which is why I say these things,
link |
01:19:57.340
because I like being told what the correct answer is.
link |
01:20:00.820
In any case, so this replaces the upright row
link |
01:20:04.640
and probably does a number of other important things as well.
link |
01:20:07.160
Yeah, well, again, listen,
link |
01:20:09.360
without naming names or programs or anything like that,
link |
01:20:11.520
when I got involved in Athlean-X
link |
01:20:16.240
when I first started my online presence,
link |
01:20:20.160
there was a very, very, very popular program
link |
01:20:23.340
that was out there that I just, for fun,
link |
01:20:25.360
I wanted to, as a PT, this is the nerdy things we do,
link |
01:20:28.280
but I wanted to evaluate the workout structure.
link |
01:20:32.760
And I went and I looked at every rep
link |
01:20:34.920
over the course of a week,
link |
01:20:36.360
and there were something like 890 repetitions
link |
01:20:39.720
or something done and zero of them
link |
01:20:43.080
were dedicated to external rotation of the shoulder.
link |
01:20:45.200
So if you think about it, I mean, yeah,
link |
01:20:46.320
it was a very popular program
link |
01:20:47.720
that was done by a lot of people.
link |
01:20:48.940
There was no focus at all,
link |
01:20:51.200
no dedicated focus towards creating a balance
link |
01:20:55.200
to an action that is so predominant.
link |
01:20:57.720
And remember, it's not just because we sit with that posture
link |
01:21:01.160
but the fact that our chest can internally rotate,
link |
01:21:04.980
our lats can internally rotate.
link |
01:21:06.760
There's like muscle, other big muscles that participate
link |
01:21:09.360
in things that we do every day
link |
01:21:11.000
that will further internally rotate the shoulder.
link |
01:21:13.720
The only weapons we have for external rotation
link |
01:21:16.780
are those little rotator cuff muscles
link |
01:21:18.760
and three of them actually, three of the four.
link |
01:21:21.160
And the job is to sort of actively
link |
01:21:23.720
and consciously train them
link |
01:21:25.320
through really the boring exercises, right?
link |
01:21:27.200
Like you've seen them with the band,
link |
01:21:28.600
you anchor a band to a pole,
link |
01:21:31.000
you stand with the band in the opposite hand.
link |
01:21:33.180
So if it's anchored to the pole on my left side,
link |
01:21:35.140
I've got the band on my right side,
link |
01:21:36.680
and you see people where they kind of rotate their hand
link |
01:21:38.720
towards the back.
link |
01:21:39.680
Again, kind of what you were saying,
link |
01:21:40.900
but at a lower elevation,
link |
01:21:42.760
taking the back of my hand
link |
01:21:43.880
and trying to point it to somebody behind me.
link |
01:21:46.840
Well, that is one of the ways to train the muscle.
link |
01:21:51.280
It's just a one function of the shoulder,
link |
01:21:53.000
external rotation of the shoulder,
link |
01:21:54.600
and you need to do it.
link |
01:21:56.480
And again, it's not that
link |
01:21:58.980
if somebody was doing more external rotation work,
link |
01:22:01.160
could they absorb the upright row better?
link |
01:22:04.220
Probably, because as they elevated the arm,
link |
01:22:07.000
they probably have a little bit more
link |
01:22:09.140
of a contribution from the rotator cuff
link |
01:22:12.600
to what one of the functions is to centralize
link |
01:22:14.860
the head of the humerus inside of the glenoid,
link |
01:22:17.880
you know, the capsule.
link |
01:22:18.720
So as it rises up,
link |
01:22:20.960
it stays central as opposed to migrating up,
link |
01:22:24.280
because the deltoid likes to pull up.
link |
01:22:26.520
So if the rotator cuff has some ability
link |
01:22:29.440
to counteract the upward pull of the delt,
link |
01:22:32.180
then it can maintain a more healthy relationship
link |
01:22:34.640
with overhead movement.
link |
01:22:35.680
So just realizing that that function
link |
01:22:37.920
is only gained through doing these exercises,
link |
01:22:40.840
you know, we would probably dedicate more time there,
link |
01:22:43.800
but the upright row might be better absorbed by that person
link |
01:22:46.800
because they have a little bit more strength.
link |
01:22:48.400
But again, why?
link |
01:22:50.060
Because if you have an exercise that does the same thing
link |
01:22:52.840
for what you're trying to do muscularly
link |
01:22:54.640
to build the muscles that it affects,
link |
01:22:56.760
why wouldn't you just do it where you can still see,
link |
01:22:59.680
actually pick up more repetitions of external rotation?
link |
01:23:02.320
You know, so you're getting none of the harm,
link |
01:23:04.360
all of the benefits, I see zero reason
link |
01:23:07.160
to ever do the upright row.
link |
01:23:08.560
And people will argue, this is the way they argue,
link |
01:23:10.480
that I've done this for 30 years and I've never hurt myself.
link |
01:23:13.960
And I always say, yet, yet.
link |
01:23:16.960
Like, hey listen, the goal is to not hurt yourself ever.
link |
01:23:21.000
So even if you, it's sort of like, you know,
link |
01:23:23.640
the championship game, you know,
link |
01:23:25.760
you might play the game of your life,
link |
01:23:27.340
but if you lose, you lost.
link |
01:23:28.680
And when you get into the end of the record books,
link |
01:23:30.800
you're still lost.
link |
01:23:31.740
So even if you had the game of your life, you lost.
link |
01:23:34.200
I don't care if you do it for 30 years, no pain,
link |
01:23:36.080
you're still doing it and there's no pain.
link |
01:23:38.000
I'm giving you an option that's going to give you
link |
01:23:40.160
the same results in the exercise that you're seeking.
link |
01:23:42.760
That's why you're doing the exercise
link |
01:23:44.460
without the possibility of having the bad outcome
link |
01:23:47.920
come from it.
link |
01:23:48.800
So, you know, I get a little bit, you know,
link |
01:23:50.920
defensive of the move, but I feel like it's like,
link |
01:23:53.320
why would you do that, you know?
link |
01:23:54.620
No, it makes sense.
link |
01:23:55.600
Being able to train for a long period of time
link |
01:23:58.300
and feel good, you know, I'm proud to say, you know,
link |
01:24:01.280
and I don't have the kind of genetics
link |
01:24:02.720
or like we don't have a lot of impressive athletes
link |
01:24:04.960
in our family tree or anything.
link |
01:24:06.240
There are some fit individuals, some less fit individuals,
link |
01:24:08.960
but I really believe it's about putting in the work
link |
01:24:10.880
consistently over time.
link |
01:24:12.000
And the more often you can wake up not in pain, the better.
link |
01:24:17.360
And so, you know, I think that being in external rotation
link |
01:24:21.020
as often as possible is good.
link |
01:24:22.120
This is actually a good friend who's a yoga teacher told me
link |
01:24:25.560
this is also a problem with the yogis.
link |
01:24:27.200
You know, a lot of, all the downward dog stuff.
link |
01:24:28.840
For those listening, you can think of inward rotation
link |
01:24:31.640
as like thumbs down.
link |
01:24:33.400
Just like thumbs down, inward rotation isn't bad,
link |
01:24:35.680
but less thumbs down, more thumbs up is external rotation.
link |
01:24:38.520
So for those just listening, maybe that gives a visual.
link |
01:24:41.480
The more exercise you can do in external rotation,
link |
01:24:44.280
the better it seems on average.
link |
01:24:47.740
I'd love to chat with you just a little bit more
link |
01:24:50.280
about biomechanics.
link |
01:24:52.560
And this is a personal thing that, again,
link |
01:24:56.760
your content really helped solve for me.
link |
01:24:59.560
One is I thought I had lower back pain,
link |
01:25:02.000
but I had sciatica so badly that on a few trips,
link |
01:25:05.800
I worked trips years ago when I was doing
link |
01:25:08.200
a lot more international travel.
link |
01:25:09.860
I mean, it was hard to stand up sometimes.
link |
01:25:11.600
I mean, like excruciating pain.
link |
01:25:13.080
I didn't want to take medication.
link |
01:25:14.320
I didn't want to do back surgery.
link |
01:25:16.740
In the end, it turns out it wasn't a back injury at all.
link |
01:25:20.740
And one of the things that helped fix it
link |
01:25:23.040
was this just learning about this thing
link |
01:25:24.920
called the medial glute.
link |
01:25:26.320
And you had a video that said fix back pain
link |
01:25:29.520
and then you quite accurately say
link |
01:25:31.640
that some back pain isn't really about the back at all.
link |
01:25:34.240
And it had me do an exercise
link |
01:25:37.160
or allowed me to try an exercise where I lay on my side
link |
01:25:40.680
and essentially pointing my toe down,
link |
01:25:43.840
the top toe down, almost like pointing a toe down,
link |
01:25:46.440
and then would slowly lift the leg up
link |
01:25:49.040
while pointing the toe down.
link |
01:25:50.940
Maybe I got it incorrect here.
link |
01:25:52.600
And then holding that, and there's a muscle
link |
01:25:54.680
that sort of sits at the top of the glute.
link |
01:25:56.200
It kind of peeks out every once in a while.
link |
01:25:57.960
You can feel it there with your thumb,
link |
01:25:59.560
which is I think that you had pushed back on it a bit,
link |
01:26:02.860
creating that mind muscle link again.
link |
01:26:04.960
And there with proprioception,
link |
01:26:06.600
the actual feeling of a muscle literally with a limb,
link |
01:26:10.680
we know based on the neural circuits for movement
link |
01:26:14.700
that that enhances the contractile ability of a muscle.
link |
01:26:17.580
So like if you touch your bicep,
link |
01:26:18.800
you literally can contract it more strongly.
link |
01:26:21.480
And this makes total sense
link |
01:26:22.620
based on neuromuscular physiology.
link |
01:26:26.740
So it had me do that repeatedly.
link |
01:26:28.240
And I started doing that in my hotel room
link |
01:26:30.640
and the pain started to disappear.
link |
01:26:32.300
And then it came back again in the afternoon.
link |
01:26:33.840
So I did it again in the afternoon.
link |
01:26:35.360
So this is something I did for three or four days.
link |
01:26:37.600
And lo and behold, my back pain's gone.
link |
01:26:40.440
I handed this off to my father
link |
01:26:42.280
because he, like me, has a slightly lower right shoulder.
link |
01:26:44.980
I think our gait is probably thrown off by this.
link |
01:26:47.320
It's probably a genetic thing.
link |
01:26:48.280
Who knows?
link |
01:26:50.060
He handed off to somebody.
link |
01:26:52.080
It turns out that we don't suffer from back pain.
link |
01:26:54.800
And in fact, now I don't suffer from any pain
link |
01:26:56.300
because I was doing this exercise,
link |
01:26:58.080
which I think is helping my medial glute.
link |
01:27:00.960
Two reasons why I raised this.
link |
01:27:02.120
One, I know a lot of guys who have right side sciatica
link |
01:27:05.620
because people keep the wallet there is one idea,
link |
01:27:08.360
or left side sciatica.
link |
01:27:10.620
There are a lot of people, male and female,
link |
01:27:12.200
who think they have back pain
link |
01:27:13.160
when they don't actually have back pain.
link |
01:27:14.600
And the other thing is that,
link |
01:27:16.160
is about a general question about biomechanics
link |
01:27:18.380
or statement about biomechanics.
link |
01:27:19.800
I had of a feeling that a lot of what people think
link |
01:27:22.780
is back pain or knee pain or neck pain
link |
01:27:24.840
or headache or shoulder pain
link |
01:27:26.720
is actually the consequence of something that's happening
link |
01:27:31.120
above or below that site of pain.
link |
01:27:33.760
And this is a whole landscape of stuff related to PT
link |
01:27:38.000
and recovery and pain management.
link |
01:27:40.440
But maybe you just educate us a bit on this
link |
01:27:43.300
and why this works.
link |
01:27:44.680
What is the medial glute?
link |
01:27:46.040
Why did it make my so-called back pain disappear?
link |
01:27:48.720
And how should people think about pain?
link |
01:27:51.080
And I like to use this as a segue
link |
01:27:52.240
to get into a little bit deeper discussion
link |
01:27:54.080
about pain and recovery.
link |
01:27:55.120
Sure.
link |
01:27:55.960
So this is definitely like a big cornucopia of PT stuff here
link |
01:28:00.600
but like, and this is what I love.
link |
01:28:02.080
So first of all, that video,
link |
01:28:05.360
it's my proudest video that I have.
link |
01:28:07.480
And the reason being is that it's helped so many people.
link |
01:28:10.660
Like we get comments on that video every day.
link |
01:28:14.400
I don't even know how many of you
link |
01:28:15.240
just got now 30 some odd million or there's a lot of-
link |
01:28:17.720
We will link to it.
link |
01:28:18.600
Yeah, there's a lot of views.
link |
01:28:19.920
And quite honestly, it was a little bit of an afterthought
link |
01:28:24.560
video in terms of its origin.
link |
01:28:27.600
I think that that day, maybe Jesse was having some problems
link |
01:28:31.040
or something like that, a little bit of low back pain.
link |
01:28:32.640
And I showed him and it helped right away.
link |
01:28:35.040
I was like, well, we can make a video on it
link |
01:28:36.920
because this will help people, not everybody.
link |
01:28:39.200
If you have a real disc problem, it's not going to help
link |
01:28:42.000
because you're not changing the structural problem
link |
01:28:44.820
that's there.
link |
01:28:45.960
But as you said, a lot of people don't.
link |
01:28:48.320
And even disc issues, a lot of them are non-operative.
link |
01:28:51.680
So you'd want to try these things first.
link |
01:28:55.640
As far as what you sort of experienced,
link |
01:28:57.520
sometimes as that glute medius really tightens down
link |
01:28:59.800
and that's again from poor biomechanics
link |
01:29:02.480
up and down the kinetic chain,
link |
01:29:03.960
it can actually press on the sciatic nerve
link |
01:29:06.480
and give you what they call a pseudo sciatica.
link |
01:29:09.040
Where it's not like you're making it up.
link |
01:29:12.680
It's not like you're not feeling that pain
link |
01:29:14.240
over that same sciatic distribution,
link |
01:29:16.380
but it's not caused from a disc.
link |
01:29:18.200
It's not caused from something mechanical there.
link |
01:29:20.680
It's caused by the fact that this glute medius
link |
01:29:23.640
has posturally become a problem for you or weak
link |
01:29:27.680
because you don't train it and you need to address it.
link |
01:29:30.800
So not unlike any other muscle in the body,
link |
01:29:34.120
there are common trigger points and common areas
link |
01:29:37.180
where the muscle will become tightened or painful
link |
01:29:40.600
or spasm and you can basically apply pressure
link |
01:29:45.480
to these areas and then sort of thread that muscle
link |
01:29:49.400
through the pressure by pushing down through there
link |
01:29:51.840
and then contracting the muscle,
link |
01:29:53.420
which is why you go through that action of,
link |
01:29:56.520
I think we call it a toe stabber,
link |
01:29:58.000
but like stabbing down and lifting up
link |
01:30:00.120
and stabbing down and lifting up,
link |
01:30:01.400
taking that glute medius through its function
link |
01:30:04.000
so that it's basically kind of working underneath
link |
01:30:07.000
the downward pressure of the finger.
link |
01:30:08.840
And that tends to help you to almost need out
link |
01:30:13.440
what might be that trigger point.
link |
01:30:15.640
And that's why people can see immediate relief there
link |
01:30:18.000
because once the trigger point lets go, it feels like,
link |
01:30:21.960
and that's what the comments are in that video.
link |
01:30:23.800
Like my God, I literally, I couldn't walk.
link |
01:30:25.940
I've been on my hotel floor.
link |
01:30:27.320
I did this and I'm fixed.
link |
01:30:29.240
And meanwhile, then it could come back
link |
01:30:31.520
because your body is like, well,
link |
01:30:32.720
I like being more like this.
link |
01:30:34.080
This is how I've been ingrained to be.
link |
01:30:37.680
So it might come back,
link |
01:30:38.520
but then when you do another round of it
link |
01:30:40.560
and another round of it,
link |
01:30:41.400
and then finally it starts to say, all right,
link |
01:30:42.640
I'm not going to do that anymore.
link |
01:30:43.480
It kind of eases up and you can relieve yourself
link |
01:30:45.280
of those trigger points.
link |
01:30:47.160
You could do that up and down the back.
link |
01:30:49.520
There's other people that get that
link |
01:30:50.520
and that sort of inside their shoulder blade,
link |
01:30:53.040
that same type of cramping in another area.
link |
01:30:56.880
But once that takes place,
link |
01:31:00.040
well then the job that I think people have
link |
01:31:02.080
is like become educated that the glute medius
link |
01:31:04.840
is different than the glute maximus.
link |
01:31:06.680
Their functions are different.
link |
01:31:08.600
You have to work on not just extending the hip,
link |
01:31:12.220
but also abduction of the hip,
link |
01:31:13.960
external rotation of the hip.
link |
01:31:15.320
Same thing as in the shoulder.
link |
01:31:17.600
And this actually segues nicely
link |
01:31:18.920
into the whole concept you were talking about.
link |
01:31:20.720
Like the body is like a mirror image.
link |
01:31:22.840
The hip is like the shoulder, right?
link |
01:31:24.440
The ankle is the wrist.
link |
01:31:26.080
The foot is the hand.
link |
01:31:27.200
Like the knee is the elbow.
link |
01:31:29.460
They're two hinge joints.
link |
01:31:30.520
They function that way.
link |
01:31:31.500
Well, with the shoulder,
link |
01:31:32.880
you've got that mobility that comes
link |
01:31:34.920
from having all that freedom of motion,
link |
01:31:37.120
but the stability is lacking.
link |
01:31:38.700
Well, the same thing with the hip.
link |
01:31:39.880
Like you've got mobility,
link |
01:31:41.480
but if you don't fully stabilize it
link |
01:31:43.460
by training all of the muscles of the hip,
link |
01:31:45.640
and if you don't strengthen
link |
01:31:46.800
the external rotation of the hip,
link |
01:31:49.120
then you're gonna have issues.
link |
01:31:52.340
Like it's not biomechanically gonna work the same way.
link |
01:31:55.000
If you think of the body as a series of bands
link |
01:31:59.040
pulling in different directions
link |
01:32:00.280
at different levels of tension,
link |
01:32:02.480
you're being pulled into one direction or the other
link |
01:32:05.280
just by the balance of tension from one weak area
link |
01:32:09.000
to one dominantly tight area.
link |
01:32:11.160
And you need to make sure
link |
01:32:12.480
that you can sort of balance this out
link |
01:32:14.420
in order to eliminate some of the adaptations
link |
01:32:16.920
and compensations that happen.
link |
01:32:18.920
So what I say when we look at sort of the body as a whole,
link |
01:32:25.680
most often wherever you're feeling the pain
link |
01:32:27.980
is absolutely not to blame.
link |
01:32:30.600
There's not blame.
link |
01:32:31.480
It is somewhere above or below as you hinted at.
link |
01:32:34.080
You know, you're talking about the knee
link |
01:32:36.320
is my favorite example of it.
link |
01:32:38.020
Whenever you have knee pain,
link |
01:32:40.260
patellar tendonitis, which I have forever,
link |
01:32:43.080
I've had bad, bad cases of patellar tendonitis
link |
01:32:45.360
where squatting is very difficult for me.
link |
01:32:48.400
It's not the knee.
link |
01:32:49.240
The knee is literally a hinge joint
link |
01:32:51.520
that there's minor rotation capabilities in the knee,
link |
01:32:54.580
but it's a hinge joint.
link |
01:32:56.040
And it's being impacted by the hip and the ankle
link |
01:33:00.240
and in the foot.
link |
01:33:01.240
As I said before, how critical the foot is.
link |
01:33:03.640
If you thought of the knee being
link |
01:33:06.960
like the middle of a train track
link |
01:33:08.480
where the femur down your thigh
link |
01:33:10.380
and your shin down below your knee were the train track,
link |
01:33:13.820
what would happen if the foot collapses at the bottom?
link |
01:33:16.780
All of a sudden that train track on the bottom
link |
01:33:19.240
gets torqued just a little bit.
link |
01:33:21.360
Well, who's going to feel that the most?
link |
01:33:23.640
The area where it's torquing, which is at the knee.
link |
01:33:25.740
So the stresses are going to be felt there.
link |
01:33:27.200
Meanwhile, the problem is the foot
link |
01:33:28.800
or the problem is the ankle.
link |
01:33:30.260
People that are chronic ankle sprainers
link |
01:33:32.800
are almost always going to wind up having back pain
link |
01:33:35.500
because the ankle sprain causes weakness and maladaptations
link |
01:33:39.020
in the ankle that then gets connected through the chain.
link |
01:33:41.840
Because now once I distort the ankle and the shin,
link |
01:33:44.960
now the knee is trying to maintain
link |
01:33:47.120
its ability to hinge smoothly.
link |
01:33:49.420
So it torques on the femur to do that.
link |
01:33:52.160
Well, the femur is now inside the hip joint
link |
01:33:53.940
pulling on the pelvis and the pelvis is out of whack.
link |
01:33:56.440
So it really is fascinating.
link |
01:33:58.480
Like it's one of my favorite things about how the body works
link |
01:34:01.580
is like how interconnected it is
link |
01:34:04.560
and how one little thing somewhere
link |
01:34:06.600
causes repercussions somewhere else.
link |
01:34:08.560
And the easiest way to find out what your problem is
link |
01:34:12.160
is to say, okay, I know where my symptom is,
link |
01:34:14.100
but I got to find someone who can help me
link |
01:34:16.040
find the source somewhere else.
link |
01:34:17.880
Because it is going to be usually either above or below.
link |
01:34:20.420
Mostly usually below
link |
01:34:21.600
because it usually translates up the kinetic chain.
link |
01:34:23.960
But usually it's going to be below where the real source is.
link |
01:34:26.820
So people with low back pain usually have hip issues,
link |
01:34:29.960
weaknesses, tightnesses, flexibility issues.
link |
01:34:32.800
It's almost always below.
link |
01:34:35.120
When you get into really high performance athletics though,
link |
01:34:38.780
it almost works the other way.
link |
01:34:40.160
Like where we have pitchers who can't,
link |
01:34:43.200
I mean, I'm always fascinated by guys
link |
01:34:44.800
that have Tommy John issues, you know,
link |
01:34:47.760
in their elbow, right, pitchers.
link |
01:34:49.000
Like if you can't externally rotate the shoulder
link |
01:34:52.960
that we talked about, again,
link |
01:34:54.040
the ability to get your shoulder back
link |
01:34:55.720
into external rotation,
link |
01:34:57.440
well, your arm has to get to a certain position
link |
01:35:01.100
for release of the baseball.
link |
01:35:02.920
And if it can't get there,
link |
01:35:04.400
cause you can't externally rotate the shoulder to get there,
link |
01:35:06.880
then the elbow has to sort of torque more
link |
01:35:09.840
in order to allow the arm to get back further.
link |
01:35:12.840
And it will try to take some of that motion
link |
01:35:15.120
from a joint that's not really, again,
link |
01:35:16.760
another, you know, the hinge joint,
link |
01:35:18.680
really capable of doing that.
link |
01:35:19.880
So it starts to stress that medial elbow ligament
link |
01:35:22.200
to get a little bit further back
link |
01:35:23.700
because the shoulder's not working.
link |
01:35:25.320
And that just ultimately places strain on the elbow.
link |
01:35:27.780
So when you see a guy that has pain that floats around,
link |
01:35:32.280
a pitcher that floats around their arm,
link |
01:35:34.260
all that is is sort of this balance of compensation.
link |
01:35:36.840
Once his shoulder elbow starts hurting,
link |
01:35:38.800
then he can't do the, get the range from the elbow.
link |
01:35:41.880
So he tries to dig a little bit further back
link |
01:35:44.080
into external rotation
link |
01:35:45.200
and then the rotator cuff gets inflamed.
link |
01:35:46.760
And then he feels that's inflamed.
link |
01:35:48.320
So, and by the way, during that time period,
link |
01:35:50.080
it takes some of the strain off the elbow
link |
01:35:51.240
so the elbow feels better.
link |
01:35:52.500
Then he decides, okay, now I got the extra rotation,
link |
01:35:55.080
but I'm getting too much of that.
link |
01:35:56.360
So now I start straining the elbow again
link |
01:35:58.280
and it keeps going through this cycle.
link |
01:35:59.880
So your body is very smart
link |
01:36:03.240
and it's going to compensate every single time.
link |
01:36:05.720
It's going to find the compensation,
link |
01:36:06.960
but there's no guarantee that that conversation
link |
01:36:08.920
doesn't leave you with a whole host of other issues.
link |
01:36:11.400
Yeah, it's fascinating.
link |
01:36:13.040
In another lifetime, I would have gone and been a PT,
link |
01:36:15.680
although it sounds like the community among PTs online.
link |
01:36:18.400
I don't know what, listen, we're good people, but it's like.
link |
01:36:21.120
Yeah, scientists and neuroscientists
link |
01:36:22.680
can get into pretty intense battles.
link |
01:36:24.480
You know, coming from the academic community,
link |
01:36:26.600
you know, the etiquette is so different online
link |
01:36:28.700
because I would say, you know, I think in person,
link |
01:36:30.440
people would probably behave a bit differently.
link |
01:36:32.160
They shake your hand and say hello.
link |
01:36:33.120
Yeah, they shake your hand and say hello.
link |
01:36:34.520
And there's also, look, I'll just be very direct about this.
link |
01:36:39.040
There are a lot of people online for whom
link |
01:36:41.280
their only content is pointing out the misunderstandings
link |
01:36:45.120
or alleged flaws of other people.
link |
01:36:46.920
There's like, where it's like the bulk of their identity,
link |
01:36:49.600
which to me is sort of a sad existence,
link |
01:36:51.580
but you know, there's always more to gain
link |
01:36:53.840
by thinking about what's possible
link |
01:36:55.000
and what's new and what's good,
link |
01:36:56.400
but you know, to each their own demise or win.
link |
01:37:00.360
I mean, questioning what's out there is healthy,
link |
01:37:03.400
it's normal, it's great, it actually sparks conversation.
link |
01:37:06.560
But as you said, some people's existence
link |
01:37:08.080
is solely to find things to, you know,
link |
01:37:11.100
nag about and not actually with the goal
link |
01:37:13.480
being to advance anything, but rather just to, you know.
link |
01:37:16.600
Yeah, in the world of science,
link |
01:37:18.400
being skeptical but not cynical is encouraged.
link |
01:37:22.320
But I would say that the longer that somebody's
link |
01:37:25.120
in a career path, it's certainly in science or medicine,
link |
01:37:27.800
and they realize how hard it is to, you know,
link |
01:37:30.800
to do various studies.
link |
01:37:31.880
Once they publish a few studies,
link |
01:37:33.120
generally they sort of get a better understanding
link |
01:37:36.040
of how the various things are done.
link |
01:37:38.000
In any case, another, along the lines of pain
link |
01:37:43.320
and pain relief and misunderstandings
link |
01:37:45.380
about the origins of pain in the body,
link |
01:37:47.240
one of the great tools that I picked up from your content,
link |
01:37:50.900
which has benefited, I know, a huge number of people is,
link |
01:37:54.320
I think I used to hold weights sometimes
link |
01:37:56.400
in the tips of my fingers, as opposed to in the meat
link |
01:37:58.760
of the palm of my hands, and I had elbow pain.
link |
01:38:01.680
And I always thought that I felt it most
link |
01:38:03.400
on tricep exercises and pushing exercises,
link |
01:38:05.640
and I thought I was doing those exercises wrong.
link |
01:38:07.880
Turns out, toward the end of my pull-ups or my bicep work,
link |
01:38:11.200
I was letting the weight or the bar drift
link |
01:38:12.960
into my fingertips, and the mere shift
link |
01:38:16.680
to making sure that my knuckles were well over the bar
link |
01:38:19.280
or that the weight was really in the meat of my palms
link |
01:38:22.560
has completely ameliorated that,
link |
01:38:24.520
for reasons that you point out,
link |
01:38:26.160
and maybe you could just share with us why that is.
link |
01:38:28.480
You have this kind of finger-pull exercise.
link |
01:38:30.680
Usually when someone says, pull my finger,
link |
01:38:32.060
it's like a bad middle school or elementary school joke,
link |
01:38:34.340
but you're-
link |
01:38:35.180
Well, this one will say, push your finger.
link |
01:38:36.120
Right, right.
link |
01:38:37.680
Yeah, this is fascinating.
link |
01:38:38.920
This is, because it just shows, again,
link |
01:38:40.920
how intricate the body is and how responsive
link |
01:38:43.160
or over-responsive it can be to something so little.
link |
01:38:45.960
And what you're talking about is that
link |
01:38:49.020
when you grip a bar, whether it be through a curl
link |
01:38:51.680
or whether it be, and this is mostly pulling exercises
link |
01:38:54.440
because the tendency for the bar is gonna be
link |
01:38:56.740
to fall out of your hand,
link |
01:38:58.160
not like with a pushing exercise where it's kind of,
link |
01:39:00.080
you're pushing your hand into the bar.
link |
01:39:01.680
So on a bench press, say.
link |
01:39:04.140
That bar can drift just by gravity, doing its thing,
link |
01:39:08.820
or fatigue of the hand grip strength,
link |
01:39:12.460
can start to drift further away
link |
01:39:14.320
towards the distal digits, right,
link |
01:39:16.600
through those last couple knuckles
link |
01:39:18.920
that we have on our hands.
link |
01:39:20.320
And though our hand can still hold it there,
link |
01:39:24.480
the muscles are not equipped to handle those types of loads.
link |
01:39:28.480
And that can start at a very, I'm not gonna say light,
link |
01:39:31.680
but like, you know, it could start at, you know,
link |
01:39:34.080
dumbbell weight, you know, 40 pounds, 30 pounds,
link |
01:39:37.400
you know, even 25 pounds or something,
link |
01:39:38.960
depending upon their overall strength levels.
link |
01:39:40.960
But then when you start to apply it to something like
link |
01:39:43.580
your body weight with a chin up, right,
link |
01:39:46.280
because that's natural for the bar to somewhat kind of
link |
01:39:49.040
float down towards your fingertips.
link |
01:39:50.880
And it actually is a little bit easier
link |
01:39:53.320
to perform the exercise with that sort of like false grip,
link |
01:39:56.800
little hook grip at the end,
link |
01:39:58.120
because you're not gonna engage the forearms
link |
01:40:00.840
into the exercise.
link |
01:40:01.680
You're not gonna start pulling down.
link |
01:40:04.180
But at the same time,
link |
01:40:05.860
while it could help you to perform them better
link |
01:40:08.440
by getting the back more activated,
link |
01:40:10.280
if you have weakness in these muscles,
link |
01:40:12.160
because it's not a thing that happens to every,
link |
01:40:13.760
it's not one of those upright row type things
link |
01:40:15.800
where I think this is happening to everybody.
link |
01:40:18.200
This is happening to people that have
link |
01:40:19.600
these inherent weaknesses in these muscles.
link |
01:40:23.600
You, or having done enough of the gripping in the fore,
link |
01:40:26.720
in the meat of the hand, you know, for long enough,
link |
01:40:29.840
but it starts to put that stress on these muscles
link |
01:40:33.440
that are ill-equipped to do this and to handle this.
link |
01:40:35.920
And it starts to, particularly on that fourth finger,
link |
01:40:39.240
you know, which is part of the muscle we call the FDS,
link |
01:40:41.800
the flexor digitorum,
link |
01:40:43.000
that is just too much for it to handle.
link |
01:40:45.420
And that comes all the way down
link |
01:40:46.840
and meets right at the medial elbow,
link |
01:40:48.360
right on that spot that you can say
link |
01:40:50.000
feels like someone's knifing you right in the middle,
link |
01:40:52.000
in that medial elbow.
link |
01:40:53.160
And medial epicondylitis,
link |
01:40:55.040
or they call it golfer's elbow,
link |
01:40:56.720
is something that a lot of us deal with in the gym.
link |
01:40:59.840
It's one of the most common inflammatory conditions
link |
01:41:02.420
people get from the gym.
link |
01:41:03.540
And it all comes from this positioning of the dumbbell
link |
01:41:07.420
or barbell or hand on a pull-up bar over time.
link |
01:41:10.520
So the easiest thing to do is just grip deeper
link |
01:41:13.600
so that what you're doing is you're using more leverage
link |
01:41:16.680
from the palm to encapsulate the bar
link |
01:41:19.400
or the dumbbell or whatever.
link |
01:41:20.780
And you're not putting that pressure really distally
link |
01:41:23.640
right on that last digit
link |
01:41:25.520
because that's where that FDS muscle is most strained.
link |
01:41:29.480
So you're just almost eliminating that from the equation.
link |
01:41:33.240
And it's one of those exercises
link |
01:41:35.800
that the load can exceed its capacity pretty quickly
link |
01:41:39.080
so that like, you know,
link |
01:41:40.280
maybe it's only capable of handling 30 pounds.
link |
01:41:43.100
And then when you're doing a chin up
link |
01:41:44.440
and it goes and it drifts so far that it's,
link |
01:41:47.180
now let's say you're a 200 pound guy,
link |
01:41:49.680
you've got, let's say 100 pounds through one arm
link |
01:41:52.160
and 100 pounds, this is simplified math
link |
01:41:54.260
that obviously is offset by other muscles,
link |
01:41:55.960
but 100 pounds through one arm, 100 pounds through the other,
link |
01:41:58.160
100 pounds off of a muscle that can handle 30,
link |
01:42:00.960
it's not gonna take many repetitions to strain it.
link |
01:42:03.580
And you're gonna feel that maybe by the time that sets over
link |
01:42:06.440
or certainly by the time that workout's over
link |
01:42:08.040
or the next day you wake up,
link |
01:42:09.080
you've got that notable stabbing pain.
link |
01:42:11.360
Whenever someone feels that,
link |
01:42:13.320
the best thing would be to determine,
link |
01:42:15.200
okay, what exercises was I doing that were pulling
link |
01:42:18.080
and where the bar could have drifted deeper
link |
01:42:21.080
further from the meat of my palm into my fingers
link |
01:42:24.360
and figure out a way to deepen that grip.
link |
01:42:26.400
When that happens though, the best thing to do
link |
01:42:28.440
with most of these inflammatory conditions
link |
01:42:30.640
is not do any of that stuff for a little while.
link |
01:42:33.240
Not ever, just for a little while.
link |
01:42:35.400
There's always things that you can do around it.
link |
01:42:37.340
I'm not saying ever do I say like, don't go to the gym
link |
01:42:40.040
or don't find something you can do,
link |
01:42:41.880
but I'm saying that particular exercise
link |
01:42:44.280
that you feel the pain on while you're doing it,
link |
01:42:47.280
never a smart idea to do that exercise when it's inflamed.
link |
01:42:51.400
If you are doing the exercise and it hurts,
link |
01:42:53.080
you probably shouldn't do the exercise
link |
01:42:54.640
because another reason for the variability of exercise
link |
01:42:59.800
is there's so many other options that you can do
link |
01:43:02.740
that will train similar muscles or even the same motion
link |
01:43:05.500
and not cause that stress.
link |
01:43:07.100
So a cable curl would be much easier to do that on
link |
01:43:11.160
than let's say a chin up where you don't have the control
link |
01:43:13.720
over the weight like you do by moving a pin on a stack.
link |
01:43:16.980
So I think that is a common thing that people find
link |
01:43:21.500
and the best thing to do is just figure out
link |
01:43:23.520
how deep are you gripping that bar
link |
01:43:25.400
and you're going to find that, oh my God,
link |
01:43:26.420
I didn't realize that because it was just,
link |
01:43:27.920
even though you might start a set in a good position
link |
01:43:30.560
and then it drifts away as you go.
link |
01:43:32.600
Yeah, I think that's what was happening to me
link |
01:43:34.500
and I'm very conscious of this now.
link |
01:43:35.920
Again, for me, I haven't had this elbow pain at all,
link |
01:43:39.920
so very fortunate.
link |
01:43:42.120
So again, a debt of gratitude to you.
link |
01:43:44.680
Never, I thought there was some roll in my elbow basically.
link |
01:43:48.080
And I thought maybe it was tennis elbow.
link |
01:43:49.680
I don't even play tennis, so there you go.
link |
01:43:53.520
Other aspects of recovery and variables for recovery.
link |
01:43:57.760
I think you and I both put out content
link |
01:43:59.560
about the use of cold and I think we can summarize it
link |
01:44:01.800
by saying, yeah, it does seem like cold water immersion
link |
01:44:04.500
immediately after hypertrophy or strength workouts
link |
01:44:07.400
might be a problem, but a cold shower
link |
01:44:08.720
is probably not a problem.
link |
01:44:09.680
What about heat?
link |
01:44:11.160
Do you personally use heat and cold saunas,
link |
01:44:15.120
hot baths, hot compresses?
link |
01:44:19.040
And by you, I mean you personally and athletes
link |
01:44:23.040
that you coach or people that you coach,
link |
01:44:25.440
what are your thoughts on the use of heat and or cold?
link |
01:44:28.300
Well, I think it might just be an inherited practice
link |
01:44:32.560
from the days of trainers since Babe Ruth.
link |
01:44:36.960
But in baseball, we used a lot of cold
link |
01:44:39.120
following performance just because the idea would be
link |
01:44:43.440
there is some, especially pitchers,
link |
01:44:45.480
there is some inflammation that is abnormal.
link |
01:44:48.360
The arm is not really designed to do what they do,
link |
01:44:50.600
especially at the speed that they move it
link |
01:44:53.020
and everything else.
link |
01:44:53.880
So we would use ice as a pretty standard practice
link |
01:44:56.980
after that, but not a lot of heat.
link |
01:45:00.360
And I don't really use a lot of heat.
link |
01:45:01.640
And of course, from the recovery or the healing aspect,
link |
01:45:04.920
that actually becomes rather personal preference
link |
01:45:08.960
they've found now after let's say the first 12 to 24 hours,
link |
01:45:13.840
where you're really trying to control inflammation
link |
01:45:15.600
of what you know might be an injury.
link |
01:45:17.380
But then it can kind of shift the personal preference
link |
01:45:19.520
because the heat can bring blood to the area also.
link |
01:45:22.800
And then the cold has its sort of anti-inflammatory effects.
link |
01:45:27.240
So there's a balance between
link |
01:45:29.360
which one's working better for you.
link |
01:45:31.000
So there's really no standard anymore
link |
01:45:32.560
for heat or cold in that way.
link |
01:45:34.320
But from a standpoint of like post-workout healthy status,
link |
01:45:39.480
I haven't used much heat or cold in terms of what we do.
link |
01:45:42.760
We cover the topic of the cold showers
link |
01:45:44.520
and to try to dispel the myth of the,
link |
01:45:47.720
even people saying that there's giant testosterone releases
link |
01:45:50.940
and all kinds of stuff that,
link |
01:45:52.920
listen, we hear all kinds of things
link |
01:45:54.360
because people want like,
link |
01:45:55.360
I think the idea of just turning the water cold
link |
01:45:58.120
and being in it for 30 seconds
link |
01:45:59.640
and then all of a sudden magically growing
link |
01:46:01.160
three times your size is intriguing for a lot of people.
link |
01:46:04.120
And that's why they ask these questions
link |
01:46:05.980
because they're like, that'd be a hell of a lot easier
link |
01:46:07.480
than going to the gym and training hard.
link |
01:46:09.880
But I'm always fascinated by some of the stuff
link |
01:46:11.900
that you talked about.
link |
01:46:13.360
In fact, we started to talk about some of this stuff
link |
01:46:15.320
in terms of cooling and what it can do on performance.
link |
01:46:18.160
And that was like, there's some untapped territory there
link |
01:46:22.320
that I think you're finding out about.
link |
01:46:24.800
Yeah, what would be fun would be
link |
01:46:25.800
to bring the cool MIT technology from Stanford.
link |
01:46:28.320
This is Craig Heller, my colleague Craig Heller's lab
link |
01:46:30.880
at Stanford has done really important
link |
01:46:32.760
and amazing work in this area,
link |
01:46:35.160
but then it moved on to some other things.
link |
01:46:36.720
He's also working on Down syndrome
link |
01:46:38.200
and he works on a number of other really important topics
link |
01:46:40.480
as scientists often do.
link |
01:46:42.080
But I have access to this cool MIT technology,
link |
01:46:44.640
no relationship to the company, by the way.
link |
01:46:46.320
We'd love to come out to your facility
link |
01:46:47.800
and we can do the blind type studies.
link |
01:46:52.080
Like the blue blocker test.
link |
01:46:53.040
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
link |
01:46:54.840
And see how that goes with somebody
link |
01:46:59.400
as advanced trained as you.
link |
01:47:01.600
That's probably the best thing to do.
link |
01:47:02.480
So content for the future.
link |
01:47:05.640
Yeah, I think heat and cold are kind of staples
link |
01:47:07.760
in the PT world.
link |
01:47:08.600
And it does seem like people use them slightly differently,
link |
01:47:11.480
but they are kind of the macronutrients
link |
01:47:14.160
of recovery there along with sleep.
link |
01:47:19.320
I do have a question about precision of record keeping.
link |
01:47:23.000
Do you keep a training journal?
link |
01:47:25.400
Do you recommend people keep training journals?
link |
01:47:27.700
Are you neurotically fixed to, you know,
link |
01:47:30.040
cadence of movement and are you looking at the,
link |
01:47:32.800
do you have a buzzer going off for night
link |
01:47:34.400
when it's 90 seconds rest?
link |
01:47:35.640
Is it 90 seconds rest?
link |
01:47:36.920
I confess I have my slow workouts and my faster workouts.
link |
01:47:40.240
And they scale with whether or not I'm training heavier
link |
01:47:42.560
with longer rest or whether or not
link |
01:47:44.920
maybe midway through a workout,
link |
01:47:46.060
I'll shift over to doing higher repetition, lower rest.
link |
01:47:48.320
This is kind of my crude way of keeping time,
link |
01:47:53.400
but I'm not, you know, will be just to kind of watch
link |
01:47:55.960
the clock, but I'm not neurotically fixed to the buzzer.
link |
01:47:59.840
Nor am I on social media during my workouts,
link |
01:48:02.400
which is actually a way to really improve workouts
link |
01:48:05.000
is to just not be on social media.
link |
01:48:07.840
Yeah, I can't claim that I'm not guilty of that.
link |
01:48:10.500
Sometimes I am on social media,
link |
01:48:12.040
but sometimes I'm trying to post something.
link |
01:48:13.560
Well, that's different.
link |
01:48:14.400
It's your profession, it's your profession.
link |
01:48:16.200
But I mean, I'm not necessarily chained
link |
01:48:24.400
to some sort of protocol in terms of how I do.
link |
01:48:27.240
I think by this point, I've been doing this a long time.
link |
01:48:29.760
And not only is it something that I've done for a long time,
link |
01:48:31.600
but it's a passion of mine, something I really enjoy.
link |
01:48:33.720
So I probably inherently have the ability
link |
01:48:36.720
to stick to these guidelines in terms of rest time
link |
01:48:40.680
to know what I lifted, you know, even six months ago
link |
01:48:45.820
on a lift and how it felt without journaling it.
link |
01:48:49.660
But I recognize the value it has to a lot of people.
link |
01:48:52.860
It goes back to that whole, my muscle connection idea
link |
01:48:55.860
that we talked about in the beginning.
link |
01:48:57.020
Like there's a lack of awareness
link |
01:48:58.860
for all aspects of training,
link |
01:49:00.580
especially maybe isn't like your interest level.
link |
01:49:02.980
And we're talking you and I from a position of interest.
link |
01:49:07.140
Like this is what we do.
link |
01:49:07.980
We enjoy just how our bodies work
link |
01:49:10.940
and understanding how they work.
link |
01:49:12.100
Some people don't care.
link |
01:49:13.020
They just want the end result.
link |
01:49:14.420
But journaling and keeping track of that
link |
01:49:17.500
raises awareness to where like,
link |
01:49:18.740
oh my God, I have been on Instagram
link |
01:49:21.620
for the last seven minutes.
link |
01:49:22.940
And I was supposed to be back at my next set in 90 seconds.
link |
01:49:26.060
Like there is a training effect of that.
link |
01:49:28.300
You know, if you're training for a metabolic overload,
link |
01:49:32.100
you've blown that opportunity because you haven't,
link |
01:49:34.500
you know, your rest time was very important
link |
01:49:38.180
to that protocol working as it should.
link |
01:49:40.780
If you were training for strength,
link |
01:49:42.060
maybe the extra few minutes doesn't matter so much.
link |
01:49:44.160
When you get back on the bar, you might find,
link |
01:49:46.140
I mean, you might find that it's a better response
link |
01:49:48.660
for your body to rest even longer
link |
01:49:50.220
than you've been told three, four minutes, five minutes.
link |
01:49:53.420
And so that way maybe it helps.
link |
01:49:54.900
But I think that anything you can do
link |
01:49:57.960
to increase your awareness of your performance
link |
01:50:00.300
and also give yourself some objective goal
link |
01:50:04.340
whenever we have an objective goal,
link |
01:50:05.820
it's a lot easier to actually obtain it.
link |
01:50:07.460
When you're just there to get a pump
link |
01:50:09.520
and you're just there to lift how you feel that day,
link |
01:50:13.700
you have to be incredibly disciplined
link |
01:50:15.380
in all other aspects of your workout
link |
01:50:17.140
in order to make that effective.
link |
01:50:18.660
You know, and I've done that too.
link |
01:50:20.020
I've actually been able to do that too.
link |
01:50:21.840
But again, the level of repetitions I've accumulated
link |
01:50:25.300
over the course of my life
link |
01:50:26.380
and the amount that I, you know, read about this stuff.
link |
01:50:29.800
And I think I'm able to get away with that.
link |
01:50:32.140
But I think more often than not,
link |
01:50:34.480
what I'm doing is not journaling,
link |
01:50:36.580
but journaling in my head
link |
01:50:38.820
exactly what I think people should be doing.
link |
01:50:40.900
And that is getting a specific effect
link |
01:50:42.940
from what you're trying to do.
link |
01:50:44.260
It's not so haphazard.
link |
01:50:45.700
You know, you want to get a specific effect,
link |
01:50:47.380
just like any other experiment that you're doing.
link |
01:50:49.220
You're doing an experiment on your own body
link |
01:50:50.940
with your own weights,
link |
01:50:51.860
which to me is one of the most empowering things
link |
01:50:54.740
someone can ever do.
link |
01:50:55.560
When they get bitten by the bug
link |
01:50:57.380
for exercising and training,
link |
01:51:00.400
and I like to use the word training
link |
01:51:01.900
rather than exercise because there's a purpose behind it.
link |
01:51:03.980
But when they get bitten by that training bug
link |
01:51:06.140
and they start to see actual changes and results,
link |
01:51:08.740
you know how empowering that is?
link |
01:51:09.720
Because we can't really control
link |
01:51:11.700
that many things in our life, unfortunately.
link |
01:51:13.700
And there's some things that happen to us
link |
01:51:15.180
that we really wish never happened.
link |
01:51:17.620
And those are not something that we can do anything about.
link |
01:51:19.980
But this is one thing that we can do our best to.
link |
01:51:22.460
We can't avoid disease entirely.
link |
01:51:24.260
We can't predict when we're going to die.
link |
01:51:25.860
We can't, you know, do those things,
link |
01:51:27.940
but we can certainly decide to show up into the gym that day
link |
01:51:31.020
and get a workout in or go for a run or do something.
link |
01:51:33.740
And by doing that, you're giving yourself,
link |
01:51:35.640
I think, a better chance at a higher quality of life.
link |
01:51:38.020
So anything you can do to increase your awareness of it
link |
01:51:41.060
and keep you on track with that is,
link |
01:51:43.060
like I'm endorsing, fully.
link |
01:51:44.900
Couldn't agree more.
link |
01:51:46.020
I could not agree more.
link |
01:51:48.700
There is a topic, it's sort of a dreaded topic,
link |
01:51:50.820
but I think it's an important one,
link |
01:51:51.900
and that's the topic of nutrition.
link |
01:51:54.140
And rather than get into specific meal programs,
link |
01:51:56.700
which would, you know, take hours
link |
01:51:58.820
and probably wouldn't even manage to scratch the surface,
link |
01:52:01.840
even with hours,
link |
01:52:03.860
we could talk about principles around nutrition.
link |
01:52:07.400
What are sort of the themes
link |
01:52:08.820
that you think people should keep in mind
link |
01:52:11.480
when thinking about how to eat generally?
link |
01:52:15.320
And pre-training and post-training
link |
01:52:19.100
are two particularly sensitive times for most,
link |
01:52:22.020
or times that people want to know a lot about.
link |
01:52:24.780
You know, what should they eat before training?
link |
01:52:26.500
Or can they train fast?
link |
01:52:27.820
What should they eat afterwards?
link |
01:52:29.020
But just in general,
link |
01:52:29.860
what do you think are some axioms of nutrition
link |
01:52:33.780
that really hold?
link |
01:52:34.980
And I ask this because,
link |
01:52:37.700
not because there's a lot of debate about this,
link |
01:52:40.440
but because you've been around this space a long time
link |
01:52:43.440
and you've seen what works for you, obviously,
link |
01:52:46.460
but for other people too.
link |
01:52:48.540
You know, what tends to work, what tends not to work?
link |
01:52:51.860
And how should we think about nutrition?
link |
01:52:54.380
I mean, look, you've touched on it a bit, but like,
link |
01:52:58.200
nutrition can be a touchy subject for people.
link |
01:53:00.540
And I understand where that comes from.
link |
01:53:02.760
I've talked about before the,
link |
01:53:05.500
there's a dogmatic tendency to nutrition.
link |
01:53:07.880
And there's a reason for it because
link |
01:53:10.380
it's an area that people struggle with
link |
01:53:12.340
more than anything else.
link |
01:53:13.420
And the reason why people struggle with nutrition
link |
01:53:15.500
is because the commitment is extremely high.
link |
01:53:18.340
You know, you could start a workout program
link |
01:53:21.820
and actually get to the gym three to five times a week.
link |
01:53:24.660
That's five hours
link |
01:53:26.140
based on how you and I were discussing it before.
link |
01:53:28.480
Well, what about the other 23 hours of each of those days?
link |
01:53:31.840
There's opportunity to eat incorrectly or unhealthily.
link |
01:53:35.940
Every one of those hours,
link |
01:53:37.260
people wake up in the middle of the night to go eat.
link |
01:53:38.980
You know, like there are things that you can do
link |
01:53:42.260
that can cause amazing amounts of damage to your longevity.
link |
01:53:47.080
In the 23 hours, not the one hour, the 23 hours.
link |
01:53:50.380
So when people finally figure out a way
link |
01:53:54.000
to make that work for them, it's very passionate.
link |
01:53:57.940
And I understand their passion.
link |
01:53:59.800
I do, like I've put out.
link |
01:54:01.060
So my approach, my approach is like,
link |
01:54:02.700
I've always been sort of a low sugar, lower fat guy.
link |
01:54:06.640
I made the mistake of going no fat years ago
link |
01:54:09.300
and I paid for it.
link |
01:54:10.140
I was like in college and you know,
link |
01:54:11.700
back in the day we were the same age.
link |
01:54:13.300
You know, we read all the magazines
link |
01:54:15.060
and that was what we had, we didn't have internet then.
link |
01:54:16.920
So we were reading magazines and the recommended path
link |
01:54:19.980
was to go low fat.
link |
01:54:22.140
It helps you to become hypocaloric very easily
link |
01:54:25.580
because the density of the calories, you know,
link |
01:54:28.340
in a gram of fat versus a gram of carbohydrates or protein
link |
01:54:31.100
is nine versus four for the carbs and protein.
link |
01:54:34.400
So if you're cutting out grams of fat on a daily basis,
link |
01:54:37.060
you're quickly cutting out calories
link |
01:54:38.980
that allows you to get leaner.
link |
01:54:40.740
Well, of course as everything, I mean,
link |
01:54:42.980
if a little is good, then a lot is better.
link |
01:54:45.060
So I would cut all of them out or almost all of them.
link |
01:54:48.380
And at the age of 22, 21,
link |
01:54:52.140
I'm like standing at a stop up at University of Connecticut
link |
01:54:55.700
waiting for the tram to come and bring me to campus.
link |
01:54:58.620
And I couldn't even open my eyes
link |
01:55:00.640
because the light was blinding to me.
link |
01:55:02.860
It was normal sunlight, it was blinding to me.
link |
01:55:05.100
The photosensitivity I had, you know, learning later on
link |
01:55:08.400
after a few more courses that I took there in biology,
link |
01:55:10.940
you know, how, you know, necessary fat was
link |
01:55:15.180
for the development of healthy, you know, cells.
link |
01:55:18.860
I realized what was going on.
link |
01:55:21.780
Then not to make other stuff, skin was bad,
link |
01:55:23.580
hair was falling out, all kinds of stuff.
link |
01:55:25.200
So I think that the approach to decreasing fat,
link |
01:55:31.900
so it's not excessive, you know, because again,
link |
01:55:33.700
how calorically dense it could be in having lower sugar.
link |
01:55:36.060
I don't, I'm a firm believer in sugar
link |
01:55:38.260
is really pretty toxic and something that we would all
link |
01:55:41.520
do better getting rid of a lot of it.
link |
01:55:43.920
That is the best approach for, I believe, again,
link |
01:55:48.400
in my opinion, personally, for the overall big picture,
link |
01:55:52.240
because though the people can take exclusionary approaches
link |
01:55:55.800
to nutrition and taking carbs out or, you know,
link |
01:55:59.240
eating only fats and proteins, or again,
link |
01:56:02.320
I'm not saying it doesn't work for you.
link |
01:56:03.760
And if it's the first thing that actually allowed you
link |
01:56:05.720
to gain control of your nutrition to the point
link |
01:56:07.320
where you actually saw results and got to a healthier weight
link |
01:56:09.880
then I always say, then do it, then do it,
link |
01:56:11.760
but just make sure it's something you can do forever
link |
01:56:14.000
and doesn't bring upon other repercussions.
link |
01:56:16.980
But I think that non-exclusionary approaches to diets
link |
01:56:21.880
are the most sustainable for the rest of your life.
link |
01:56:25.760
And when I, and all I'm interested in
link |
01:56:27.360
from a nutrition standpoint is something that's sustainable.
link |
01:56:29.520
So when I preach what I preach,
link |
01:56:30.760
I've been doing this since I was 15, 14, you know,
link |
01:56:35.680
people say like, how's he get so ripped?
link |
01:56:37.640
How's he get, I have been doing this for four,
link |
01:56:40.100
since for how many years, 30, 30 years?
link |
01:56:42.720
30 and clean, low sugar.
link |
01:56:44.080
Yeah, 30 years, you know, and in the beginning,
link |
01:56:46.880
it was a slow shift I had to make where I was like,
link |
01:56:50.420
I went from the worst diet in the whole world.
link |
01:56:53.180
I was, even when I was 14 years old,
link |
01:56:56.080
my breakfast was, I talked about this so many times,
link |
01:56:58.720
but like enemins, I would eat enemins, you know, donuts.
link |
01:57:01.360
And those long road.
link |
01:57:03.160
Yeah, they even took the whole out of the donut.
link |
01:57:06.840
Yeah, exactly.
link |
01:57:08.640
Why would you, why would you delete the middle of the donut?
link |
01:57:11.800
You know, the crumb donut there, you know,
link |
01:57:14.800
I would eat donut donuts.
link |
01:57:15.640
I can taste it in my, I don't like sugar very much,
link |
01:57:17.480
but over the years I've lost my appetite for sugar.
link |
01:57:19.800
Right.
link |
01:57:20.640
But as you talk about the enemins donuts,
link |
01:57:21.480
I can literally smell and taste the frosting.
link |
01:57:24.560
And to me now it's disgusting,
link |
01:57:25.840
but back then it might've been appetizing.
link |
01:57:27.760
You would probably have like really good information
link |
01:57:29.560
on this, but like my ability to actually remember,
link |
01:57:33.640
and they've said smell is very evoking of memories, right?
link |
01:57:37.760
So there's a, smell is unlike the other senses
link |
01:57:39.960
because there's a direct line,
link |
01:57:41.760
literally from our sense of smell
link |
01:57:43.720
to the memory centers of the brain.
link |
01:57:44.960
It doesn't have to go through any intermediate stations.
link |
01:57:46.880
Okay, so, you know, my ability to actually recall
link |
01:57:51.160
exact taste of all the stuff that I used to love
link |
01:57:54.260
is enough to satisfy me to not engage in those things now.
link |
01:57:59.320
As crazy as that is, I like,
link |
01:58:00.440
I almost get my fill through remembering
link |
01:58:03.040
because of these strong senses of memory
link |
01:58:05.380
of what it was like is, oh, that used to taste so good.
link |
01:58:07.500
Okay, that's good, I had it.
link |
01:58:08.760
Fantastic, well, that's,
link |
01:58:10.880
we know the neuromodulator there, that's dopamine.
link |
01:58:13.600
Your ability to get the dopamine release
link |
01:58:15.760
from the thought of something.
link |
01:58:17.440
Most people, when they get that dopamine release,
link |
01:58:20.280
it causes a triggering of the desire for more, right?
link |
01:58:24.080
People think of dopamine as pleasure.
link |
01:58:25.640
Dopamine, there's a book, great book
link |
01:58:27.600
called The Molecule of More.
link |
01:58:28.720
I didn't write the book unfortunately, but someone else did.
link |
01:58:31.260
And it's a great book and it's really about how dopamine,
link |
01:58:34.260
we think it's about pleasure, but it establishes craving.
link |
01:58:37.000
So you're able to satisfy that.
link |
01:58:38.520
And it's a very adaptive thing for you
link |
01:58:40.400
because you are indeed very lean
link |
01:58:42.880
and that's one of your kind of hallmark things.
link |
01:58:45.280
And as a professional who does this in the public space,
link |
01:58:48.200
that's important when people are out there
link |
01:58:49.920
talking about getting lean and you look at them
link |
01:58:51.680
and you're like, maybe you need to do the protocols.
link |
01:58:55.760
It's a huge advantage, but yeah,
link |
01:58:57.520
I think that it sounds like you've cultivated practices
link |
01:59:01.520
around avoiding certain things.
link |
01:59:03.280
Yes, yeah, I mean, but not avoiding certain things
link |
01:59:07.160
that I think are easily avoided if you realize that there,
link |
01:59:12.000
I mean, I think that we have enough science
link |
01:59:13.440
and literature out there to prove
link |
01:59:14.920
that the altered path is a better path.
link |
01:59:17.560
You know what I mean?
link |
01:59:18.760
Like, I feel like if I was just doing it
link |
01:59:20.960
because I wanted to be lean,
link |
01:59:22.300
I'm not quite sure it would have held for so long.
link |
01:59:25.800
And we have a guest whose episode has been recorded
link |
01:59:29.440
for this podcast who runs an eating disorder clinic
link |
01:59:32.300
at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School,
link |
01:59:34.840
studies binge eating disorders, anorexia, OCD,
link |
01:59:37.480
and he will go on record, and obesity,
link |
01:59:39.880
and he will go on record saying
link |
01:59:41.040
that these very highly palatable processed high sugar foods
link |
01:59:45.040
of the sort that we're talking about,
link |
01:59:47.740
donuts and so forth, that they are actually dangerous, right?
link |
01:59:52.120
That there are elements of the way
link |
01:59:54.200
that they engage neural circuitry, he's a neurosurgeon,
link |
01:59:57.000
that reshape the brain in dangerous ways.
link |
02:00:00.120
And those are his words and-
link |
02:00:01.240
Yeah, tank enemins, for sure.
link |
02:00:03.520
Yeah, and it's not just enemins.
link |
02:00:04.720
I mean, I think not just enemins, right?
link |
02:00:07.520
Yeah, they're coming after us with what?
link |
02:00:09.420
With donuts.
link |
02:00:10.260
Exactly.
link |
02:00:11.080
Yeah, they can't catch us.
link |
02:00:12.840
True, true.
link |
02:00:14.760
In any case, so in terms of what you do eat,
link |
02:00:18.800
how do you structure that in terms of
link |
02:00:21.520
when you look down at a plate,
link |
02:00:22.860
you've done these, described this before,
link |
02:00:24.680
but I think it's just a beautifully simple description
link |
02:00:26.920
because I think a lot of people
link |
02:00:27.760
don't want to do calorie counting and all this.
link |
02:00:29.760
And how should people think about what to eat?
link |
02:00:34.800
So, yeah, I have what I call a plate method
link |
02:00:37.760
and it's just simple because it works for me.
link |
02:00:40.600
And again, if you're struggling with real eating issues,
link |
02:00:45.200
these mechanisms become admittedly less effective
link |
02:00:49.320
because you're having,
link |
02:00:50.620
maybe you have emotionally triggered eating
link |
02:00:52.000
and you can't stop at one plate.
link |
02:00:53.760
I mean, you can get the plate right,
link |
02:00:55.740
but if the portions are out of control-
link |
02:00:57.480
Plate.
link |
02:00:58.320
The plate has a dimensionality of height.
link |
02:01:00.720
Or multiple plates, like second and third.
link |
02:01:02.880
Or plate.
link |
02:01:03.720
Right, or plate, right.
link |
02:01:04.880
Then all these things can be challenged.
link |
02:01:07.120
But what I say is, when you have your plate,
link |
02:01:10.920
then you just simply look at it as like a clock, right?
link |
02:01:15.700
And if you just make a nine 20 on the clock,
link |
02:01:19.760
so one arm goes over to the nine
link |
02:01:22.120
and one of the arms goes over to 20,
link |
02:01:24.240
well then you're basically,
link |
02:01:25.760
you're gonna take the second largest portion of that
link |
02:01:29.320
because you're gonna make a line towards 12 o'clock too.
link |
02:01:31.800
And the largest portion is gonna be
link |
02:01:33.960
your fiber's carbohydrates.
link |
02:01:35.160
So that's the green vegetables, right?
link |
02:01:38.640
So whether it be broccoli or Brussels sprouts or asparagus,
link |
02:01:41.640
or pick your favorites.
link |
02:01:45.880
Those are the ones that give us
link |
02:01:47.440
a lot of the micronutrients we need.
link |
02:01:48.960
They're the ones that are generally
link |
02:01:50.960
accepted as more healthy.
link |
02:01:53.000
And they're also gonna provide the fiber
link |
02:01:54.840
that's gonna be both beneficial
link |
02:01:56.360
in terms of its impact on insulin
link |
02:01:58.520
and also just through filling you up, right?
link |
02:02:01.240
And then I take the next largest portion of that
link |
02:02:04.600
and I devote that towards protein.
link |
02:02:06.720
And I think it's really important,
link |
02:02:07.800
especially for anybody active.
link |
02:02:10.080
The more active you are,
link |
02:02:11.160
the more you embark on trying to build muscle,
link |
02:02:13.200
you're gonna need to have protein every meal.
link |
02:02:15.020
So I have that.
link |
02:02:15.920
And again, we're talking cleaner sources of protein,
link |
02:02:19.160
but you'll never find like boiled chicken on my plate.
link |
02:02:22.680
Like I ditched those days when I was 16 or 15 or 16.
link |
02:02:25.760
Like I realized after reading those bodybuilding magazines
link |
02:02:28.480
that maybe the low fat thing stuck for too long,
link |
02:02:31.240
but the, or the no fat thing stuck for too long,
link |
02:02:33.760
but the boiled chicken and a steamed broccoli thing,
link |
02:02:38.420
that ended quickly for me.
link |
02:02:39.440
Cause I really, I'm not gonna eat this forever.
link |
02:02:41.420
So I'll have some sort of fish or chicken,
link |
02:02:44.320
but it will be cooked in a way that's like,
link |
02:02:48.280
it's got maybe some sauce on it or it's got some,
link |
02:02:50.800
maybe it's tomato sauce, anything to just make it
link |
02:02:53.280
a little bit more palatable and interesting
link |
02:02:54.620
without blowing the value of the meal.
link |
02:02:56.520
And then that last portion is where I put
link |
02:02:58.320
my starchy carbohydrates.
link |
02:03:00.040
And again, that's the part that some people will say,
link |
02:03:01.680
exclude them entirely cause they're not healthy
link |
02:03:03.360
or they don't work for you,
link |
02:03:04.400
or they're not beneficial long-term.
link |
02:03:06.880
For me, it's been a godsend.
link |
02:03:08.920
And I do think I'm like most people,
link |
02:03:11.540
my body craves those carbohydrates.
link |
02:03:13.780
I choose things like sweet potatoes, which is my favorite,
link |
02:03:17.360
or I'll have rice or I'll have pasta, I'm Italian.
link |
02:03:21.760
So I like pasta and like, I will have those things.
link |
02:03:24.600
I'm not excluding them,
link |
02:03:25.520
but I don't put them in the portions
link |
02:03:26.920
that you would generally find.
link |
02:03:28.640
You know, my wife and I will go out
link |
02:03:30.520
and we'll go to the restaurant sometimes,
link |
02:03:32.040
like because we travel quite a bit,
link |
02:03:34.240
or used to at least with baseball too.
link |
02:03:36.280
There's a cheesecake factory everywhere you went.
link |
02:03:38.080
And I love cheesecake factory,
link |
02:03:39.840
but like the way they structure meals is,
link |
02:03:42.760
it's all rice on the bottom
link |
02:03:44.960
and a little bit of chicken on top.
link |
02:03:46.240
And I mean, it's a plate full of rice
link |
02:03:48.560
that you wouldn't find me make a plate that way.
link |
02:03:50.800
I'm going to just devote that portion of the plate
link |
02:03:53.200
to the starchy carbohydrate.
link |
02:03:55.120
And so it gives me a little bit more responsibility
link |
02:03:57.400
in terms of portion control,
link |
02:03:58.640
because those are the foods, again,
link |
02:04:01.040
probably dopamine driven that are most easily overeaten.
link |
02:04:05.320
I always ask the question,
link |
02:04:07.040
how was the last time you ate 10 chicken breasts at a meal?
link |
02:04:09.560
Like you're getting sick of it after maybe two or three,
link |
02:04:11.980
but you could eat a whole hell of a lot of carbohydrates,
link |
02:04:14.640
starchy carbohydrates,
link |
02:04:15.560
because they're just so satisfying.
link |
02:04:18.120
And I think those triggers, as you said,
link |
02:04:19.680
the want more, like that's what happens, right?
link |
02:04:21.900
You just keep, even when you're feeling full, you want more.
link |
02:04:25.340
And that's the biggest danger to carbohydrates.
link |
02:04:27.440
So if you can develop some sort of discipline around them,
link |
02:04:32.040
then you can still enjoy them.
link |
02:04:33.180
If you can't develop that discipline for whatever reason,
link |
02:04:37.080
then maybe they do become something
link |
02:04:38.520
that you have to work yourself around
link |
02:04:39.920
or adopt a different eating style.
link |
02:04:41.240
And as I said, I'm never to the point
link |
02:04:43.440
where I'm not trying to be dogmatic in my approach.
link |
02:04:45.880
I'm always trying to say, this is how I do it
link |
02:04:48.080
and I'm a believer in it,
link |
02:04:49.520
just like everyone else is a believer in their method.
link |
02:04:51.800
But I'm open to the idea that something that works for you
link |
02:04:55.040
and gets you to a healthier weight and a sustainability,
link |
02:04:59.260
like that is good.
link |
02:05:00.760
That's good for me.
link |
02:05:01.720
Provided it doesn't introduce other issues.
link |
02:05:04.880
Yeah, something one can do consistently.
link |
02:05:06.640
That's something I picked up from you over the years.
link |
02:05:10.180
What can you do consistently?
link |
02:05:11.280
And for me, that also meant when and how can I eat?
link |
02:05:14.920
What can I eat consistently
link |
02:05:16.320
that will also allow me to be alert after lunch
link |
02:05:18.420
so I can actually get some work done or eat?
link |
02:05:21.760
I like to train fasted in the morning,
link |
02:05:23.240
but I don't do any long-term fasting.
link |
02:05:24.640
It just so happens that I'm fine doing water and caffeine
link |
02:05:28.240
in the morning and training in the morning,
link |
02:05:30.200
and then I eat my first meal afterwards.
link |
02:05:32.280
But I get carbohydrates at night,
link |
02:05:34.000
so my glycogen is restored.
link |
02:05:35.760
I think carbohydrates are wonderful.
link |
02:05:37.720
I just don't eat them in excess.
link |
02:05:39.320
So to me, I feel like when,
link |
02:05:42.000
what you describe as a very rational,
link |
02:05:43.600
literally balanced approach,
link |
02:05:45.440
and obviously there will be variations
link |
02:05:47.340
for people who are dealing with obesity or diabetes,
link |
02:05:49.800
or I've got friends that are on the pure carnivore thing.
link |
02:05:53.600
I have friends that are vegan,
link |
02:05:54.700
and it's always impressive to me
link |
02:05:57.260
when somebody can stick to anything consistently,
link |
02:06:02.320
except when they're sticking to just poor behavior.
link |
02:06:04.800
There's nothing impressive about that.
link |
02:06:06.560
Well, I think that that's very helpful
link |
02:06:09.440
because I think there's,
link |
02:06:10.500
for the typical listener of this podcast,
link |
02:06:14.360
the online content that people see,
link |
02:06:16.440
the battles are very confusing.
link |
02:06:18.360
They're distracting because people really think,
link |
02:06:21.120
oh, there's a right way and a wrong way.
link |
02:06:22.660
And it sounds like the way
link |
02:06:23.880
that one can eat consistently over time that's healthy.
link |
02:06:28.700
Certainly fewer processed and sugary foods.
link |
02:06:30.960
I think almost everybody agrees there.
link |
02:06:32.640
Yeah, almost everyone agrees on that, right?
link |
02:06:34.400
So I think it's calorie manipulation
link |
02:06:37.800
through some other method, right?
link |
02:06:39.140
So even intermittent fasting, like you said,
link |
02:06:43.260
that could be, it's for people that are grazers.
link |
02:06:47.040
If you are a grazer and your real problem
link |
02:06:49.180
is portion control over the course of the day,
link |
02:06:51.720
but you can respond to a rule that says,
link |
02:06:53.700
no, you're eating between here and here,
link |
02:06:56.280
that you can obey that rule,</