back to indexJeff Cavaliere: Optimize Your Exercise Program with Science-Based Tools | Huberman Lab Podcast #79
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Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,
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where we discuss science and science-based tools
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for everyday life.
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I'm Andrew Huberman,
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and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology
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at Stanford School of Medicine.
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Today, my guest is Jeff Cavaliere.
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Jeff Cavaliere holds a master of science
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in physical therapy,
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and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist.
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He did his training at the University of Connecticut stores,
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one of the top five programs in the world
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in physical therapy and sports medicine.
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I discovered Jeff Cavaliere over 10 years ago
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from his online content.
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His online content includes information
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about how to train for strength,
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how to train for hypertrophy, which is muscle growth,
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how to train for endurance,
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as well as how to rehabilitate injuries
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to avoid muscular imbalances, nutrition,
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and supplementation.
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I've always found his content
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to be incredibly science-based, incredibly clear,
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sometimes surprising, and always incredibly actionable.
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It is therefore not surprising
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that he has one of the largest online platforms
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for fitness, nutrition, supplementation,
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and injury rehabilitation.
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Jeff has also worked with an enormous number
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of professional athletes
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and has served as head physical therapist
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and assistant strength coach for the New York Mets.
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Again, the content that Jeff Cavaliere has posted online
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has been so immensely useful to me over the years
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that I was absolutely thrilled
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to get the chance to sit down with him
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and ask him about everything from how to train
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in terms of how to split up the body parts
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that you train across the week,
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how to integrate strength training and endurance training,
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when to stretch, how to stretch.
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Indeed, we talked about nutrition,
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we talk a bit about supplementation,
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we talk about how to really avoid creating imbalances
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in muscle and in neural control over muscle.
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So one thing that's really wonderful about Jeff
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is he really has an understanding
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of not just how muscles and bones and tendons
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and ligaments work together,
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but how the nervous system interfaces with those.
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We talked about the mental side of training,
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including when to bring specific concentration
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to the muscles that you're training
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and when to think more about how to move weights
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through space and think more about the movements overall.
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I'm certain that you'll find the conversation that we held
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to be immensely useful and informative
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for your fitness practices
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and also for how you mentally approach fitness in general
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and how to set up a lifelong fitness practice,
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one that will give you the strength that you desire,
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one that will give you the aesthetic results that you desire,
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one that will set you up for endurance
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and cardiovascular health,
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basically an overall fitness program.
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I really feel this is where Jeff Cavaliere shines
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above and beyond so many of the other PTs and fitness
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so-called influencers that are out there.
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Again, everything is grounded in science,
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everything is clear and everything is actionable.
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And while we do cover an enormous amount of information
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during today's episode,
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if you want to dive even deeper into that information,
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you can go to athletenext.com
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where you'll find some of Jeff's programs.
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You can also find him at athletenext on YouTube.
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There you will find videos, for instance,
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like the how to repair or heal from lower back pain,
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something that I actually followed directly
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long before I ever met Jeff, has over 32 million views.
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And that is not by accident,
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is because the protocols there again
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are surprising and actionable.
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They relieved my back pain very quickly without surgery.
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So I'm immensely grateful for that content.
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And it extends into everything from, again,
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hypertrophy, endurance and strength training and so on.
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Again, it's athletenext.com as the website,
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athletenext on YouTube, and also athletenext on Instagram.
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The Huberman Lab Podcast is proud to announce
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that we've partnered with Momentous Supplements.
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We've done that for several reasons.
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First of all, the quality of their supplements
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is exceedingly high.
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Second of all, we wanted to have a location
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where you could find all of the supplements
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discussed on the Huberman Lab Podcast
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in one easy to find place.
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You can now find that place at livemomentous.com
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In addition, Momentous Supplements ship internationally,
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something that a lot of other supplement companies
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So that's terrific whether or not you live in the US
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or you live abroad.
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Right now, not all of the supplements
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that we discuss on the Huberman Lab Podcast are listed,
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but that catalog of supplements
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is being expanded very rapidly.
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And a good number of them that we've talked about,
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some of the more prominent ones for sleep and focus
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and other aspects of mental and physical health
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are already there.
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Again, you can find them at livemomentous.com
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Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize
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that this podcast is separate from my teaching
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and research roles at Stanford.
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It is, however, part of my desire and effort
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to bring zero cost to consumer information
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about science and science-related tools
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to the general public.
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In keeping with that theme,
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I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
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Our first sponsor is Athletic Greens, now called AG1.
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I started taking AG1 way back in 2012,
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so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast.
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The reason that I started taking AG1
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and the reason I still take AG1 twice a day
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is that it covers all of my foundational health needs
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for mental health, physical health, and performance.
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As I mentioned earlier, it has vitamins and minerals
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that cover any deficiencies I might have in my diet.
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It also has probiotics, and the probiotics are key
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for supporting the so-called gut microbiome.
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The gut microbiome are trillions of little micro bacteria
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that live in our gut from our throat
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all the way down to the base of our gut
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that support everything from our immune system
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to our hormone health to the so-called gut brain axis.
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That is, our gut and our brain are in direct communication
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with one another in ways that support our mood,
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our ability to think, and overall brain health.
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If you'd like to try Athletic Greens,
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you can go to athleticgreens.com slash Huberman
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to claim a special offer.
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They'll give you five free travel packs,
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which make it very easy to mix up Athletic Greens
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while you're on the road,
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and they'll give you a year's supply of vitamin D3, K2.
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Vitamin D3 and K2 are essential
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by impacting things like hormone regulation,
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calcium regulation, and cardiovascular health.
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Again, go to athleticgreens.com slash Huberman
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to claim that special offer.
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Today's episode is also brought to us by Eight Sleep.
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Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers
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with heating and sleep tracking
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and importantly, cooling capacity.
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I've talked many times before on this podcast
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and on another podcast about the close relationship
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between temperature and sleep.
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That is, your body temperature has to drop
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by about one to three degrees in order to fall asleep,
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and waking up involves heating up of your body
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by about one to three degrees.
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Now, some people run cold during the night.
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I'm one such person.
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Today's episode is also brought to us by Roka.
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Roka makes eyeglasses and sunglasses
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that are of the absolute highest quality.
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The company was founded by two all-American swimmers
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from Stanford, and everything about Roka eyeglasses
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That said, the aesthetics of Roka eyeglasses
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and sunglasses is superb.
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I've spent a lifetime working on the biology
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and I can tell you that your visual system has to contend
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with an enormous number of challenges
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in order to be able to see clearly.
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Roka understands this and has developed their eyeglasses
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and sunglasses in a manner such that when you move
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You can wear them while running or cycling,
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Roka eyeglasses and sunglasses look terrific.
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If you want to try Roka glasses, you can go to roka.com,
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Again, that's Roka, R-O-K-A.com,
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and enter the code Huberman at checkout.
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And now for my discussion with Jeff Cavaliere.
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Jeff, such a pleasure for me to have you here.
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I'm glad to be here, it's amazing.
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I'm a long time consumer of your content.
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I've learned a tremendous amount about fitness,
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both in the weight room, cardio, nutrition,
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things that I've applied for over a decade.
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So for me, this is particularly meaningful.
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And my goal here is really to ask a bunch of questions
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to which I'm interested in the answers,
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but also for which I know the audience
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is really curious about.
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So one of your mantras is,
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if you want to look like an athlete, train like an athlete.
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And I think that's something really special
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that sets aside what you do
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from what a lot of other very well qualified people do.
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And in terms of the use of weights and resistance,
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whether or not it's body weight or weights in the gym
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or pulleys versus cardio,
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you know, in terms of overall health, aesthetics,
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is there a way that you could point to, you know,
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the idea that maybe people should be doing, you know,
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50% resistance training and 50% cardio,
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maybe it's 70-30, maybe it's 30-70.
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And here I'm talking about the typical person
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who would like to maintain,
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or maybe even add some muscle mass,
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probably in particular areas for most people,
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as opposed to just overall mass,
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although we'll talk about that later.
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And people who want to maintain a relatively low
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body fat percentage and being good cardiovascular health.
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What's the sort of contour of a basic program
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that anybody could think about as a starting place?
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I think it's like a 60-40 split,
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which would be leaning towards weight training,
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you know, strength and then, you know,
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the conditioning aspect be about 40%.
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So if you look at it over the course of a training week,
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I mean, five days in a gym would be a great task.
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And obviously not in the gym, it could be done at home,
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but three days strength training,
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Monday, Wednesday, Friday, conditioning,
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Tuesday, Thursday, you know, two days.
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It's a pretty easy roundabout way to split that up.
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Of course, depending upon training goals,
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and as you said, the aesthetic goals,
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like that will shift dramatically.
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But if you want to see the benefits of both,
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that's probably the effective dose for strength training
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and the effective dose for conditioning
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at the bare minimum level.
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Again, being a much better performer condition wise,
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you're going to want to do more than that.
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And in terms of the duration of those workouts,
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what's your suggestion?
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I've been weight training for about 30 years,
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running for about 30 years, and mainly for health,
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and have found that if I work hard in the gym
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or at resistance training for more than 60 minutes or so,
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it's very hard for me to recover.
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I start getting colds,
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I start getting weaker from workout to workout.
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But amazingly, at least to me,
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if I keep those workouts to about 10 minutes of warmup
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and 55 zero minutes or so of really hard work
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for resistance training,
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and I keep the cardiovascular work
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to about 30 to 45 minutes, I feel great.
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And I seem to make some progress,
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at least someplace in the workout from workout to workout.
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Yeah, I mean, those are good numbers
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because those are kind of numbers that we usually preach.
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We try to keep our workouts to an hour or less, if possible.
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Now, depending upon the split that you're following,
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if you're on a total body split,
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there's just going to be more that has to be done
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in a given amount of time.
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That again, if you're training primarily for strength,
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that could prolong the workout
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because the longer rest times in between sets.
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But in general, when you're not focused on that one aspect,
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but the overall health picture,
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then you can get the job done in under an hour.
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And again, I always say,
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on top of if you want to look like an athlete,
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train like an athlete is you can either train long
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or you can train hard, but you can't do both.
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And I really believe that the focus for me,
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I have a busy life,
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I have a lot of other things that I do, believe it or not.
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And it's like, I want to go hard and I want to go get out.
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And I find that my body also responds to that.
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I think a lot of guys' bodies respond to that.
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And particularly as you start to get older,
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I think it's the length of the workout
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that actually causes more problems
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than the intensity of what you're doing.
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Particularly if you're warmed up properly, like you said.
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I've found personally that my warmup
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has had to become more of an integral part of my workout
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than it ever has before.
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I could get in the gym when I was 20
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and I'm going right over, I'm doing the one set,
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two sets, I'm ready to go.
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And I never do another workout warmup set
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for any of the other exercises I do the rest of the day.
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That's not true anymore.
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And I found that as long as I'm willing
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to sort of give myself a little bit of a warmup,
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the intensity is not what bothers me.
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I'm very much in control of the weights that I use
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and it doesn't bother me.
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But if I start to go pretty long,
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I start to feel achy or I start to have problems.
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So again, depending upon age,
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that also plays a factor in the length.
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But again, I think everybody can achieve,
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on a standard program, can achieve the results
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that they want within an hour.
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In terms of splits, you mentioned splits.
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And so for those who aren't familiar with this term, splits,
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it's really which body parts are you training on which days?
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It seems like almost everybody follows
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a weekly workout schedule,
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although the body of course doesn't care about the week.
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There's no reason to think that once every seven days
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or twice every seven days makes sense physiologically,
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it's just the body doesn't work though.
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But that's the way life is structured.
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I've seen you discuss three days a week,
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whole body workouts.
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I've heard of splits like a pushing one day,
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pulling another day, legs another day, a day off, repeat.
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I mean, there's so many variations on this.
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What are some general themes that we can throw out there
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and in order to avoid the huge matrix of possibilities?
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You have some wonderful content that points to those.
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And we will cap, in our caption show notes,
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we will link out to some of those
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that are different ways to design splits.
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But in terms of giving people a logic
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of how to think about splitting up body parts,
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what's governing the split?
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What are the rules and the logic that dictate a split?
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For me, the first rule is will you stick to it, right?
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Like if you, cause there are split,
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I don't particularly like full body splits.
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I was actually talking to Jesse about that the other day.
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Like I don't necessarily like to have to train everything.
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Now, of course the volumes will come down per muscle group.
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But if you don't like to do that
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and you actually don't look forward to your workout
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because you're dreading having to do everything
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and feeling maybe too fatigued
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by the time your workout's over,
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or the fact that those generally do take a little bit longer
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and don't fit into your schedule,
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I don't care how effective the split is.
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A split not done is not effective.
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So you need to find one that fits.
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So maybe you go into an alternative option,
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like a push pull legs, like you mentioned.
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And that could be done either one cycle through the week
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on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday split,
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or it could be twice in a week.
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So you're actually training six times where you repeat it.
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Pull push legs, pull push legs,
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or however you want to do it,
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with either a day off in between the three days
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or at the end of the six days.
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And again, that actually impacts your schedule.
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I've broken that down before where it's,
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if you put it in between the three days,
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it's good because you're giving yourself
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an extra rest day in between,
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but it starts to shift that day off every week
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as we wrap around.
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So for those guys that were choosing that seven day schedule
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out of convenience in our heads,
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it starts to mess with that off day.
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So others like to just keep it predictably,
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let's say on a Sunday and train six days in a row.
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But that's a better way to maybe group
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similar muscle actions together,
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which I think I definitely prefer that
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because if I'm going to be training, pulling movements,
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at least there's a synergy between them.
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And I feel like I'm looking to achieve one goal that day.
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And then, I mean, quite honestly,
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you can go back to the bro split days
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and those still work effectively.
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There's a reason why they worked in the past.
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Like I think that science shows that there's smarter ways
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to do them these days.
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Like you can come back and hit a related muscle.
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So you could do, let's say biceps on one day
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and then come back two days later and do back,
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realizing again, synergy between the exercises there,
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your biceps are going to get restimulated again.
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So you could figure out ways to make that work.
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But the thing that I think is effective there
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is that tends to be one of the ones
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that people like the most because they can go in,
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they get their pump, they feel good,
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that it's pretty solely focused on one muscle group.
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Is that the definition of a bro split?
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One muscle group a day.
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So it's very much geared towards strength and aesthetics,
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really maximizing chest one day.
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Probably more aesthetics than strength.
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Hence the bro name.
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Yeah, but again, like, and here I am a science guy
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and I could appreciate the benefits of a bro split,
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especially because again, like what, to what end?
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Who's goal are we trying to achieve here?
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You know, like, I mean, if I'm applying my standards
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and my goals or even like athletic ideals,
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but they just want to get in shape,
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then it's perfectly fine to do a bro split in that instance
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if you're sticking to it again
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and you're seeing the results that you want to see from it.
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But they're able to really keep their focus on one muscle.
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They get to focus on, you know, like look,
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a lot of times people struggle with the way
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of an exercise feels until their second or third set.
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Like they don't have that proprioceptive ability
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to kind of lock in on an exercise.
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So spending a few, not only sets on the same exercise,
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but then doing another exercise
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with the same muscle group helps them to dial in
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a little bit better and get more out of their training.
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Yeah, that raises a really interesting,
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I think important question.
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Early on when I started resistance training,
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which was when I was 16 in high school,
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I got in touch with, and I was learning from Mike Mentzer.
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Me too, me too, that's crazy.
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And Mike was very helpful, very, very helpful.
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We got to be friendly.
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So if I just read his book,
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I didn't get a chance to be him, so I'm jealous right now.
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Back then, no internet,
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I paid by Western Union type thing to send him some money.
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For the back of the magazine.
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And then he got on the phone with me
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and my mother at the time was like,
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why is this grown man all in the house?
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And he gave me a very straightforward split,
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which was shoulders and arms.
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One day, he had me taking two days off
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and then training legs and then two days off
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and then chest and back, et cetera.
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And that's a variation of a bro split too,
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where you're sort of breaking them down that way,
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chest and back or chest and buys, you know?
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Yeah, and it worked very well for me.
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I probably would have, because of my age, I think,
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and because I was untrained, I think, largely untrained,
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I think it would have grown on many different programs,
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but it worked very well for me.
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I eventually just made that an every other day thing.
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So shoulders and arms, day off, legs, day or two off,
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because if you hit legs right, at least for me,
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I'm not training the next day.
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And then I'm not doing much of anything athletic
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the next day and chest and back and repeat and so on.
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And the reason I found that helpful
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is I almost always recovered between workouts.
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The six day a week program of push, pull, legs,
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push, pull, legs, to me seems excruciating
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from two standpoints.
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One is, at least with my recovery abilities
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or lack of recovery abilities,
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I can't imagine coming back feeling fresh.
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And the other one is if I'm in the gym
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more than four days a week, I really start to fatigue it
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about the whole psychological experience of it.
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Whereas if I'm in there three or four days a week,
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in other words, if I put a day off in between each workout,
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I really want to be there.
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And I get in there with a lot of fire.
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And I'm also doing other things on the off days.
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So I think that I love that you mentioned
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that the split that you'll stick to
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and that you can bring the intensity to,
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because I think that that's really important.
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I sometimes hear about two a day training.
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I've done two a day training twice in my lifetime,
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both times I got sick two days later.
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That's correlation, not causation, you know?
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But is there ever an instance
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where two a day weight training makes sense
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for the non-drug assisted, typical recovery ability person?
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I actually, I think it makes sense in some scenarios,
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but it doesn't make sense practically
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for a lot of people's schedules.
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So like, if you could break down,
link |
let's say you were going to do even a, you know,
link |
some version of a total body session,
link |
or maybe like you're going to do an upper lower split,
link |
You could do an upper workout and do the anterior chain
link |
or the pushing portion of that in one session,
link |
and then come back and do the pulling session
link |
later on at night if you had the opportunity to.
link |
The thing that you benefit from there
link |
is the freshness of focus.
link |
Again, like something in my head is sacrificed
link |
by the time you get towards the latter half
link |
of whatever workout you're in.
link |
To the same point you made before,
link |
like when you start to approach that 50 minutes,
link |
an hour mark, you are either losing focus,
link |
you're losing energy, you're losing contractile ability,
link |
you're losing something.
link |
And if you're relegating whatever it is,
link |
the pulling portion of that to the end of that workout,
link |
something suffers.
link |
So that, okay, if they realize that's happening,
link |
then maybe you switch them up
link |
the next time you do the workout
link |
where the pulling portion of the upper workout goes first,
link |
and then the pushing goes later.
link |
So you're at least not just continuing that cycle.
link |
But at the same time, if you were able
link |
to kind of split them up,
link |
you get a chance to kind of take a break,
link |
you can have that freshness of focus again,
link |
and you can actually get a better effort in.
link |
Because again, I think effort drives the results.
link |
So if the effort is not compromised,
link |
then you should be able to do that.
link |
But systemically, is that a problem?
link |
And I think that it is a problem for a lot of people.
link |
It's just hard to, it's hard to rev the engine up
link |
a lot of times during the day.
link |
You warm that thing up once,
link |
it's like that car in the winter,
link |
you get it going once, you're lucky.
link |
Okay, now you got to drive it the rest of the day.
link |
But you put it in the garage
link |
and try to start the next day, it's a problem.
link |
So, young people can get away with a lot more
link |
than older people could, you know?
link |
Well, I've never had a strong recovery quotient.
link |
But if I stick to this one day off in between,
link |
every once in a while, two days in a row training,
link |
maybe because I have to travel
link |
and I want to make sure I get all the workouts
link |
and kind of thing, I seem to be okay.
link |
I like your example of warming up the car,
link |
spoken like a true East Coast or those of us
link |
from the West Coast, took a moment there.
link |
But folks from the East Coast and the Midwest get it,
link |
and certainly from Europe.
link |
In terms of the mixing up of cardiovascular training
link |
and resistance training, same day, different day,
link |
which one should come first, which one should come second?
link |
If one's main goals, again,
link |
everyone listening has different goals,
link |
are most people would like to either maintain
link |
or gain some muscle.
link |
I don't know many people that want to lose muscle.
link |
Maintain or gain some muscle,
link |
usually in specific locations on their body.
link |
Most people would like to be a bit leaner or a lot leaner.
link |
There are a few people out there
link |
that are either naturally lean
link |
or actually just want to gain weight.
link |
But assuming that people want to get leaner,
link |
put on some muscle, maintain muscle,
link |
and want to have a healthy heart and a healthy brain,
link |
which basically requires a healthy cardiovascular system,
link |
how would you incorporate cardiovascular work
link |
into the overall weekly regimen?
link |
So again, I think that the bare minimum
link |
is probably twice a week in terms of cardiovascular,
link |
if you want to have some semblance
link |
of cardiovascular conditioning.
link |
But I think most people who actually need it more
link |
or want to pursue it more than that
link |
are going to need more time to do that.
link |
So at some point it can't just be relegated to a day off
link |
or a day off from the weight training workouts.
link |
So at some point it has to occur on the same day.
link |
And in that case, I just like to put it,
link |
if that is not your primary goal,
link |
but you're looking more for just the overall picture,
link |
the aesthetics you mentioned,
link |
putting muscle on in certain areas,
link |
then I would put it at the end of the workout.
link |
Because you don't want to in any way compromise
link |
the weight training workout.
link |
And as we've sort of referenced a couple of times already,
link |
the intensity of those workouts is important.
link |
And we know there's a strength component to those workouts
link |
also that is going to be a helpful stimulus for growth.
link |
So the conditioning, the cardio,
link |
that stuff done prior to any strength training workout
link |
is likely going to impair your ability
link |
to perform at your best.
link |
So unless it's just done for a quick little warmup
link |
in the beginning, but then it's not sustained long enough
link |
really to be a benefit for cardiovascular conditioning.
link |
So I just like to put that at the end,
link |
realizing that even if my effort level is lower,
link |
my output is lower,
link |
if it's still placing a demand on my cardiac output
link |
to get that conditioning effect because I'm fatigued,
link |
it still has a demand on my cardiac output.
link |
So it's still achieving its goal,
link |
but it didn't interfere with my main goal
link |
of being able to increase my performance in the gym.
link |
And in terms of the form of cardiovascular training,
link |
I've seen you do a number of, I have to say,
link |
very impressive high intensity interval type work.
link |
So burpee type work or pushups with crunches mixed into them.
link |
Anyway, people can see your videos too.
link |
I didn't describe those in the best way,
link |
but rather than on the treadmill
link |
or out jogging for 30, 45 minutes,
link |
is that because you prefer higher intensity,
link |
higher heart rate type training
link |
or is it because you live in cold Connecticut
link |
and you don't want to be out jogging on the roads
link |
in the middle of winter?
link |
I think all of the above.
link |
I mean, those are factors from a personal level,
link |
but I think that if we could blend function
link |
across these realms and not have such a delineation
link |
between this is my weight training
link |
and this is my conditioning,
link |
but figure out a way to blend them together,
link |
I always think that you've got a better opportunity
link |
to get that more well-rounded result.
link |
And I like to kind of mix up that straight conditioning work
link |
and also some of the footwork drills.
link |
Like we have some high expectations for guys
link |
that come into our programs,
link |
like to just do some footwork drills.
link |
Ladders or line drills or something.
link |
And you know what happens?
link |
People become intrigued and interested.
link |
Like, I never, I haven't tried this since high school.
link |
And they become interested in just the challenge of it.
link |
And as we become almost distracted by the challenge,
link |
we're now like finding ourselves conditioning.
link |
And I always think that's an important part
link |
that sometimes you got to draw people in
link |
to show them what they might be interested in.
link |
And from the output or the effect of it,
link |
I just think that when you're able to blend some,
link |
still maintain some of that strength training
link |
into the exercise.
link |
So as you mentioned,
link |
let's say I'm doing some kind of a pushup or a burpee.
link |
I mean, there is an anaerobic component to that
link |
that is going to be helpful
link |
rather than just walking or just jogging.
link |
Not to say that that isn't an effective means
link |
for strict cardiac conditioning.
link |
It's one of the ways that we've had for centuries to do it.
link |
But I just think that if we can blend it,
link |
then it becomes maybe a little bit more interesting
link |
and you get some of those crossover benefits
link |
and it doesn't become so segmented
link |
in terms of what we're trying to do.
link |
I love the idea of bringing some mental challenge
link |
and some desire to improve a skill while conditioning.
link |
That's not something that I've thought of before.
link |
And it's simply because I've overlooked it,
link |
but it makes sense because my sister who's reasonably fit,
link |
although I'm always trying to get her to do a bit more,
link |
she always asks me, what should I take?
link |
And I believe her in supplements
link |
for certain people in certain instances,
link |
but I keep telling her, behaviors are going to,
link |
and nutrition are going to have
link |
the greatest outsized positive effect.
link |
And she loves things like dance classes and things
link |
or kickboxing, these kinds of things.
link |
So it makes sense that if you can hook somebody
link |
on the conditioning aspect or the skill aspect
link |
and kind of trick them into doing more cardio,
link |
so to speak, that's terrific.
link |
Also, the neuroscientist in me just has to say, forgive me,
link |
that anytime you're engaging
link |
the two sets of motor neurons, the ones in your brain,
link |
the upper motor neurons and the ones in your spinal cord,
link |
anytime you're engaging those upper motor neurons,
link |
which are for deliberate, well-controlled action,
link |
you're doing a great thing for your brain
link |
in terms of brain longevity.
link |
So now I need to incorporate some actual skills
link |
Going back to weight training a bit,
link |
one of the most important things I learned from you
link |
over the years was that when training
link |
to increase muscle size, to really think
link |
not so much about moving weights,
link |
but more about challenging muscles.
link |
I also heard this from my friend Ben Pakulski,
link |
who's a very well-accomplished, he was a bodybuilder now,
link |
he's into other aspects of fitness, teaches fitness,
link |
but don't move weights, challenge muscles,
link |
unless you're trying to power lift
link |
or something of that sort, which I'm not.
link |
Immensely helpful.
link |
But the other thing that I learned from you
link |
that I combined with that was this idea
link |
that certain muscles will grow better
link |
and get stronger much more easily,
link |
maybe even will recover better
link |
because of our ability to contract them really hard.
link |
And this, what I call the cavalier test,
link |
which is, at least if I could paraphrase,
link |
so for instance, if I can, it's always the bicep, isn't it?
link |
Let's use the calf or the bicep.
link |
If you can flex your bicep to the point
link |
where it hurts a little bit,
link |
like it almost feels like a cramp or a cramp,
link |
or you can flex your calf to the point
link |
where it really cramps up a little bit,
link |
it almost feels like it's nodding up,
link |
that's a pretty good indication
link |
that you're going to be able
link |
to stimulate that muscle well under load
link |
if you're doing the movement properly.
link |
And that's the feeling to actually aim for each repetition,
link |
maybe even throughout the repetition.
link |
For me, this completely transformed my results.
link |
And this was, I think maybe five, six years ago
link |
that I first heard this from you,
link |
body parts that for me lagged behind
link |
that I thought maybe genetically weren't gonna work for me
link |
immediately just started growing, right?
link |
And I was getting stronger and stronger,
link |
and I thought this is really something,
link |
so much so that I've dedicated a portion of my research
link |
along with in collaboration with another group
link |
to try and understand what's happening
link |
in these upper motor neurons in the brain
link |
that can engage the muscles even more.
link |
And that it's not just about progressive overload
link |
or putting a pump into the muscle,
link |
that it's really this mind-muscle connection
link |
is a real thing when it comes to predicting results
link |
and that you can get better at it.
link |
So forgive me for paraphrasing
link |
your incredible content around this.
link |
It made a tremendous difference for me
link |
and a number of other people that I've passed that along to.
link |
But what can you, first of all, how did you arrive at that?
link |
Because we hear about the mind-muscle connection,
link |
but I really heard it first from you.
link |
How did you arrive at this kind of cramp test,
link |
the cavalier test as I'll call it?
link |
It's always weird when people name things
link |
after themselves in science,
link |
but other scientists can name things.
link |
So there is now officially the cavalier test
link |
is whether or not you can cramp the muscle
link |
in the absence of load, just flexing it
link |
to the point where it hurts a little bit.
link |
That would be a good indication
link |
that you could grow that muscle well.
link |
So how did you come up with this?
link |
I mean, honestly, it's something that made sense to me
link |
because during my workouts,
link |
even as a young kid, just starting out,
link |
I always wanted to know what is it working?
link |
A lot of people ask that question more so than you think.
link |
What is this supposed to work?
link |
And I don't know if you've ever noticed,
link |
but like when people ask that question,
link |
if they're being trained by a trainer
link |
and the trainer is saying, well, just do this,
link |
do this exercise and they'll show you how to do it.
link |
But then they'll say, but what is it supposed to work?
link |
Where am I supposed to feel this, right?
link |
People, did they just inherently ask that question?
link |
A lot of people will.
link |
I was one of those that did that and I asked that question
link |
not because I knew what I was doing,
link |
but just because I don't know,
link |
I wanted to know what was supposed to be doing the work.
link |
Once you do that and you start to seek that out and say,
link |
okay, well, the bicep is what's supposed
link |
to be doing the work,
link |
then I want to make sure the bicep's doing the work, right?
link |
So then I would just sort of really tweak the movement
link |
to make it do more work or feel more uncomfortable
link |
or get a stronger contraction,
link |
knowing if that's supposed to do the job.
link |
It wasn't until PT school that I'm learning,
link |
oh, well, flexion of the elbow is the brachialis
link |
and the biceps and the biceps responsible for supination.
link |
I learned other components of it,
link |
but all I wanted to know was to bring my arm up in a curl,
link |
what is supposed to do the job?
link |
So I would seek out ways to make that happen better.
link |
And when I was able to do that,
link |
I could feel the stronger contraction.
link |
And I just, I don't know what, I just, I was no visionary.
link |
I just felt like I knew that that was going to be better
link |
for me if the muscle I was trying to grow
link |
was being stressed more effectively.
link |
So when I was attempting to do this
link |
across different exercises,
link |
I would notice that what I could do potentially
link |
on a curl where my arm is up,
link |
where you asked me to flex my bicep, that position,
link |
I couldn't do if I was doing a concentration curl,
link |
or I couldn't carry over to a cable curl.
link |
And that shouldn't really change, right?
link |
Cause the function is still largely the same.
link |
There's still elbow flexion, there's still supination.
link |
Like why am I not able to do it there?
link |
And that's where it sort of clued into me that like,
link |
your mind muscle connection on not just your mind
link |
with one muscle, but on every exercise matters.
link |
And it varies from exercise to exercise.
link |
And even if you don't gain muscle size from doing that,
link |
although I think it's very hard not to,
link |
especially if you're not used to doing that,
link |
there's a term I like to call muscularity,
link |
which is a difference, right?
link |
It's the level of sort of resting tone in the muscle.
link |
That improves dramatically.
link |
If you can learn how to just start
link |
to engage that muscle better,
link |
the muscularity, the resting tone of that muscle is harder.
link |
It's more at attention, it's more alive, you know?
link |
And it's all driven from being able to connect better
link |
neurologically with the muscle that you're trying to train.
link |
I've talked about a lot,
link |
inefficiency is really what you're trying to seek
link |
in movements when you're trying to create hypertrophy.
link |
When strength is your goal,
link |
efficiency of the movement is what you're looking for.
link |
You're looking to have muscles tied together
link |
and work well, efficiently,
link |
the chest, the shoulders, the triceps,
link |
to get a bar off of your chest or in a bench press.
link |
You're not looking to make it a very inefficient,
link |
you know, leverages for your chest
link |
to try to grow your chest in a bench press.
link |
You're trying to let the whole package come together
link |
for a greater output.
link |
But when you're trying to go and create muscle hypertrophy,
link |
or even this muscularity that I talk about,
link |
you need to seek ways to make it feel more uncomfortable.
link |
If you don't feel the discomfort,
link |
then you're doing something wrong.
link |
And I struggle to this day on certain muscle groups
link |
to still do that, even knowing what I'm trying to work
link |
and knowing what the goal of everything I'm preaching here.
link |
It's very difficult for some muscles
link |
and for certain people to do this on certain muscles.
link |
But as you mentioned, practice does help.
link |
And the more you become, you know,
link |
consistent and deliberate with what you're trying to do,
link |
the more of a result you actually get.
link |
It's a couple of really important points
link |
I'd like to delve into further.
link |
First of all, my hunch was always that the muscle groups
link |
that grew most easily and that I could contract hardest
link |
without any, the first time I did the Cavalier test
link |
got 10 out of 10, if we give it a 10 out of 10 scale.
link |
You know, it could just like cinch, isolate those muscles,
link |
cinch them, grow them easily.
link |
I mean, there's certain body parts I don't want to say
link |
which ones, because it doesn't really matter,
link |
that I always felt like if I just did pushups,
link |
they would grow and these muscles are far away
link |
from any of the muscles
link |
that are supposed to be involved in pushups.
link |
Even though I like to think I'm doing pushups correctly.
link |
You'll tell me if I'm not.
link |
But some of that I think is genetic
link |
and some of that has to do with the sports
link |
that I played when I was younger.
link |
So I swam, I played soccer, I skateboard.
link |
And then later I boxed.
link |
And so the muscles involved in those sports
link |
were always very easy to engage
link |
later when I went into the gym.
link |
So I guess perhaps a call to parents, you know,
link |
having kids do a lot of dynamic activity
link |
seems like it might be a good idea.
link |
The other thing is this issue of muscularity.
link |
I am so glad you brought that up.
link |
There are, I have to imagine, a large number of listeners
link |
who don't want to get bigger.
link |
They don't want to take up a larger clothing size.
link |
They don't want to take up more space.
link |
In fact, some of them would like to take up less space,
link |
but they want that quality that you're describing,
link |
which is that, you know, oftentimes you hear it more
link |
in the, here I'm stereotyping a bit,
link |
but with kindness, you know,
link |
you hear from women who are having weight training,
link |
they say, I don't want to get big often.
link |
Sometimes they do.
link |
But most women that I've helped weight train
link |
or talked to about weight training say,
link |
I don't want to get big, I want to get toned.
link |
And I think what they're referring to
link |
is this quality of muscularity,
link |
this idea that at resting or at close to rest
link |
or anytime someone reaches out and grabs a glass,
link |
that the muscles almost look like
link |
they're kind of twitching underneath the skin.
link |
And yet it's not Saran wrap skin, anatomy chart type skin.
link |
So this thing of muscularity or resting tone,
link |
you know, has a physiological basis.
link |
I think it's how readily the nerves
link |
are communicating with the muscles.
link |
And you're saying that by learning
link |
to engage the muscles more actively,
link |
the resting tone or muscularity can improve.
link |
Have you seen that both in men and women?
link |
And do you think this is something
link |
that takes upkeep, maintenance,
link |
or that, you know, once you develop that in a muscle,
link |
you can just kind of let it coast?
link |
So I think like everything that requires upkeep,
link |
you know, use or lose it, I do believe firmly.
link |
But like, I think that it's the development
link |
of the connection is going to be harder
link |
than the maintenance of the connection.
link |
As I said, I still struggle to this day for myself
link |
with, you know, unnamed muscle groups, you know, also,
link |
you know, but like, you know, there's just certain areas
link |
that are harder for your brain for whatever reason
link |
to just develop that connection at that type of level
link |
to create that extra strong contraction.
link |
But I think that with proper dedication and focus,
link |
and I'll go right out and say, you know,
link |
calves is one of the areas that I don't necessarily
link |
have a great connection with.
link |
And I also obviously must not care so much
link |
because I don't put in the time and effort
link |
to create that connection as I could.
link |
So I think what might happen is, you know, yeah,
link |
there could be a struggle there,
link |
but then with struggle comes disinterest.
link |
You're like, well, screw it, I'm a calf knot
link |
and I'm not going to do anything about it, you know.
link |
So I think if you put the required effort in
link |
and the time and repetitions that you will develop that
link |
and once you do develop it,
link |
it's going to stick around a lot longer than it would
link |
had you not invested any time into it at all.
link |
You know, not requiring as much of that.
link |
But I mean, I don't know, like, you know,
link |
you mentioned now when you train, it's like,
link |
you're just, this is just part of how you train now.
link |
Like you're going hard, you're trying to, you know,
link |
really forcefully contract.
link |
You're not just moving the weight,
link |
I say from point A to point B,
link |
but you're like trying to contract the weight
link |
through that range.
link |
That is a mindset that I try to put into
link |
what everything I'm doing,
link |
unless of course I'm focused on a strength exercise
link |
where I'm just trying to lift a greater amount
link |
and use all the muscles together.
link |
But when the goal is inefficiency for hypertrophy,
link |
I am really trying to create that contraction
link |
and it's just part of my training.
link |
So I guess that, you know, for consistency's sake,
link |
as long as I'm training, it's happening.
link |
You know, if I get away from training,
link |
then it's not happening at all.
link |
But you know, even there, I probably,
link |
another embarrassing admission,
link |
probably will mindfully do it throughout the day,
link |
even with the weight in my hand, you know,
link |
in certain muscle groups, whether it be my abs or my arm
link |
or my shoulders or something,
link |
I'm doing something just to sort of engage the muscles.
link |
And I do think that some of that sort of inane practice
link |
actually helps by the time you go back into the gym.
link |
You just kind of keep that connection going.
link |
Well, it certainly obeys all the rules of neuroplasticity.
link |
You know, the fire together, wire together mantra,
link |
which is the words of my colleague, Karla Schatz,
link |
hold true for all aspects of neural function,
link |
including nerve to muscle.
link |
So these flexing throughout the day
link |
or the deliberate isolation of contracting a muscle
link |
throughout the day is without question
link |
engaging neuroplasticity.
link |
And if you were to do fewer of those repetitions,
link |
you're going to get less engagement
link |
of the nerve to muscle connection.
link |
I can say this with a smile and with confidence,
link |
because one of the first things
link |
all neuroscience students learn
link |
is about the neuromuscular junction,
link |
because it's a really simple example
link |
of where the more times the nerve fires
link |
and gets the muscle to contract,
link |
the stronger that connection gets.
link |
Receptors are brought there, et cetera, et cetera.
link |
There's a whole bunch of mechanisms
link |
for the topic of another podcast.
link |
But basically that practice throughout the day
link |
makes total sense and works.
link |
Yeah, and there's no, believe me,
link |
there's no science behind that
link |
in terms of the application of it.
link |
You do it when you catch yourself doing it
link |
from time to time.
link |
But it is definitely something that's easily done discreetly
link |
and you wind up doing it.
link |
I actually, I think in a recent video
link |
when I did talk about growing your arms
link |
by just improving the connection,
link |
not that that connection itself
link |
is applying any load or resistance
link |
that's significant to create overload for growth,
link |
but it's the development of that connection
link |
that I then take back with me into the gym
link |
at a more effective level
link |
that takes every exercise I do there
link |
and makes it more effective.
link |
That's like sharpening the blade, so to speak.
link |
Yeah, certainly obeys the laws
link |
of nerve to muscle physiology.
link |
Want to just touch on a couple of things.
link |
If the goal is to challenge muscles
link |
and one is dividing their body into, let's say,
link |
a three or four day a week split or so,
link |
or maybe up to six,
link |
how do you know when a muscle
link |
is ready to be challenged again?
link |
I've heard, okay, every 48 hours
link |
as protein synthesis increases,
link |
and then we'll get into this, and then it drops off.
link |
But frankly, if I train my legs hard,
link |
I can get stronger from workout to workout,
link |
or at least better in some way,
link |
workout to workout, leg workout to leg workout,
link |
training them once every five to eight days.
link |
If I train them more often, I get worse.
link |
So whatever that 48 hour to 72 hour thing is,
link |
somehow my legs don't obey that,
link |
or maybe something else is wrong with me,
link |
but I'm sure there are many things else wrong with me.
link |
But how do you assess recovery at the local level,
link |
meaning at the level of the muscles?
link |
So we'll talk about soreness and getting better,
link |
stronger, more repetitions, et cetera.
link |
And then the systemic level,
link |
the level of the nervous system.
link |
And I'd love for you to tell us about the tool
link |
that, again, I learned from you,
link |
which is actually using a physical scale,
link |
because it turns out,
link |
that will let you tell what the tool is,
link |
but that tool is also actively being used
link |
for assessing cognitive decline and cognitive maintenance
link |
and cognitive function
link |
in people with Alzheimer's and dementia.
link |
Makes total sense.
link |
Makes total sense.
link |
All right, so regarding the first part of the question,
link |
like, how would you kind of dictate
link |
when a muscle is recovered?
link |
So I do think that what you're experiencing
link |
that different muscles recover at different rates.
link |
And I've always been so fascinated by this concept.
link |
I've talked about internally with my team,
link |
but like, I feel like what we really need,
link |
the holy grail to training is going to be
link |
when we're able to crack the code on an individual basis,
link |
when a muscle is recovered,
link |
and that is going to dictate its training schedule.
link |
And the fact that you might have a bicep
link |
that could be trained via a pulling workout,
link |
a regular bicep dedicated workout,
link |
forget the split at the moment,
link |
you might have a bicep that's able to be trained
link |
that can be trained again the next day,
link |
and then the next day,
link |
and then maybe you need a day off after that.
link |
But like, in that,
link |
that can vary from person to person for sure.
link |
And it can vary from muscle to muscle in that person
link |
over the course of time, as you mentioned,
link |
because the systemic recovery is going to impact
link |
all those muscles anyway.
link |
But let's say you're systemically recovering,
link |
every muscle itself is going to have a recovery rate.
link |
And I think what's fascinating is that
link |
when you talked about before we like to train this week,
link |
or we have like the way our mind looks at training.
link |
Well, if that was the case with the biceps,
link |
that bicep is a slave to the rest of your training split.
link |
You know, where it's like,
link |
well, why does it have to be also
link |
at the end of every eighth day or, you know, or whatever,
link |
when it might respond better
link |
to something much more frequently?
link |
And your legs are also being thrown into that mix.
link |
There's a Mike Mentzer concept where he's like,
link |
you know, train it, you know,
link |
one set and be done for 14 days.
link |
I mean, you know, there's such variability
link |
between muscle groups
link |
and you're linking them all together.
link |
I think that coming back and using muscle soreness
link |
as a guideline for that is one of the only tools we have
link |
in terms of the local level.
link |
You know, we don't really have, you know,
link |
being able to measure, let's say,
link |
CPK levels inside of a muscle would be amazing,
link |
you know, at a local level to see how recovered that muscle is
link |
but that becomes fairly invasive,
link |
at least to my knowledge, it becomes fairly invasive.
link |
So what are our tools?
link |
I mean, I think that at the basic level,
link |
that's the one that most people can relate to
link |
and easily identify and then use that as a guideline.
link |
And if you're training when you're really sore,
link |
it's probably not a great idea.
link |
And it's probably a good indication
link |
that that muscle is not recovered,
link |
but at least hearing what you and I are saying here
link |
might be a comfort to the person to say,
link |
yeah, it is possible that it's not recovered.
link |
Just because 48 hours is the recommendation
link |
and just because research points to muscle protein synthesis
link |
needing a restimulation, well, maybe not.
link |
Maybe you're not necessarily there yet.
link |
You're in that, and for that muscle, you're not there yet.
link |
So it's all really interesting stuff.
link |
But as far as the systemic, you know, recovery,
link |
I think there's a lot of ways, you know,
link |
people talk about resting heart rate
link |
measured in the morning,
link |
all different kinds of, you know,
link |
core temperature and things like that
link |
that might become altered in a state of non-recovery.
link |
But grip strength is very, very much tied
link |
to performance and recovery.
link |
And when I was at the Mets,
link |
we used to actually take grip strength measurements
link |
as a baseline in spring training all the time.
link |
Now, obviously as a baseball player,
link |
you're gripping a bat, you're a pitcher,
link |
you're gripping a ball, like, you know,
link |
having good grip strength is important.
link |
So if we've noticed somebody had a very weak grip,
link |
it's just a good focal point
link |
of a specialized training component for the program.
link |
Do you do this every day with those guys?
link |
No, in spring training,
link |
we do sort of a baseline entry-level measurement,
link |
and then we would measure it throughout the season,
link |
maybe once every two weeks or three weeks.
link |
And, you know, the idea there was to manage the recovery,
link |
measure the recovery.
link |
But I just gave it away.
link |
You know, to determine overall recovery,
link |
your grip strength is pretty highly correlated.
link |
So we have found that with one of those scales,
link |
those old-fashioned bathroom scales
link |
at like Bed Bath & Beyond or whatever you can get,
link |
which by the way, almost impossible.
link |
I believe Jesse and I were searching for the last scale
link |
to put in that video, and we almost couldn't find one
link |
because everything is like digital and everything,
link |
you know, it's like this,
link |
I'm looking at the old-fashioned dial controls.
link |
It's like old Macintosh computers.
link |
There's a huge market for them.
link |
And old phones, kids, keep your phones now.
link |
In 30 years, the lame phone now will be worth a lot of money.
link |
Will be worth a lot.
link |
So, you know, I wound up, you know, finding one,
link |
and it's a great tool for just squeezing the scale
link |
with your hands and seeing what type of output you could get.
link |
And I think we all can relate to this
link |
when you just visualize, imagine the last time you were sick
link |
or just try this the next time you wake up in the morning.
link |
When you first wake up in the morning, you're still groggy.
link |
Try to squeeze your hand.
link |
Try to make a fist as hard as you can.
link |
You're going to sit there angry at your fist
link |
because it won't contract as hard as you know it can.
link |
You don't have the ability to just create the output.
link |
And that is because in that state, you're still sleepy.
link |
You're still fatigued.
link |
You're not even awake at the whole level at this point.
link |
Well, that is still an actual phenomenon that happens
link |
that a lack of recovery or a lack of wakefulness
link |
or whatever you want to say
link |
is going to lead to a decreased output there.
link |
So when you start to measure that on a daily basis,
link |
you can get a pretty good sense of where you're at.
link |
And I think when people start to see a drop off
link |
of 10% or so or even greater of their grip output,
link |
you really should skip the gym that day
link |
because I don't think there's much you're going to do there
link |
that's going to be that beneficial,
link |
even if it is the day to train legs or whatever day it is.
link |
It's low cost if you can find such a scale.
link |
I guess you could also find one of those grippers that,
link |
and you can do this in a very non-quantitative way,
link |
but better would be a scale
link |
where you could actually measure
link |
how hard you can squeeze this thing at a given time of day.
link |
It draws to mind just a little neuroscience factoid.
link |
In the world of circadian neurobiology,
link |
one of the consistent findings is that
link |
in the middle of your nighttime,
link |
they'll wake people up and they'll say, do this test.
link |
In the laboratory, they use a different apparatus,
link |
but it's essentially the same thing.
link |
And in the middle of the night,
link |
grip strength is very, very low.
link |
And mid-morning, grip strength is high.
link |
And as the body temperature goes up into the afternoon,
link |
grip strength goes higher and higher and higher,
link |
and then it drops off.
link |
There's a circadian rhythm and grip temperature.
link |
So you probably want to do this
link |
at more or less the same time each day if you're gonna use it.
link |
But I think it's brilliant in its simplicity
link |
and its directness to these upper motor neurons,
link |
because that's really what it's assessing.
link |
Your ability, again, it's about the ability
link |
to contract the muscles hard.
link |
If you can't do that,
link |
you're not gonna get an effective workout.
link |
Yeah, and they also, I mean,
link |
there certainly are more sophisticated tools too as a PT.
link |
We have hand-grip dynamometers,
link |
and we can measure one side at a time too.
link |
I'm not really, I'm getting a little bit blinded
link |
by the fact that both hands are squeezing into that scale
link |
and I don't get really a left-right comparison.
link |
But even at that level,
link |
that could give you a little bit more detail,
link |
but that comes with a cost.
link |
Those are pretty expensive devices.
link |
But if it's, listen, if you're an athlete,
link |
the 200, 300 bucks it costs to have one of those
link |
would be well worth the added investment.
link |
And I'm sure some of our listeners will want one too,
link |
because there are a lot of tech geeks out there.
link |
Not tech industry geeks, but people who like tech gear.
link |
What's it called again?
link |
It's a hand-grip dynamometer.
link |
Hand-grip dynamometer.
link |
Said by Jeff with a great East Coast accent
link |
and by me in a terrible botched West Coast version.
link |
We'll put that in the show notes also.
link |
I think recovery is key.
link |
We always hear about sleep.
link |
You grow when you sleep and incidentally your brain,
link |
you stimulate learning when you're awake, obviously,
link |
but the reordering of neural connections happens in sleep.
link |
This is why sleep is the way to get smarter,
link |
provided you're also doing the learning part.
link |
This leaves the way to get stronger,
link |
provided you're also doing the training part.
link |
You've had some really,
link |
you've put out interesting content over the years
link |
in terms of even sleep position.
link |
One of the major changes that I made to my sleep behavior
link |
is to not have the sheets tucked in at the end of the bed.
link |
And I'll tell you, this had a profound impact
link |
on several things.
link |
First of all, my feet have always been
link |
the bane of my existence.
link |
Broke them a bunch skateboarding.
link |
And I noticed when I'd run, I'd get shin splints.
link |
And then I started to notice that my feet sort of,
link |
you're the PT, they were kind of floppy
link |
and as if I was pointing my toes slightly all the time
link |
at rest, if I was.
link |
And I realized that based on listening to you previously,
link |
that my sheets were wrapped tight, not hotel tight.
link |
I don't know what that thing in the hotel is.
link |
And I started releasing the sheets at the end of the bed.
link |
And I also started doing some tibialis work,
link |
front shins work, essentially.
link |
Changed everything.
link |
My back pain from running, my shin splints disappeared,
link |
my posture improved.
link |
Although my audience will tell me
link |
that it still needs improvement.
link |
There are always five or 10 people that want.
link |
I've actually had chairs sent to our mailing address.
link |
So I'm trying there.
link |
But this is fascinating, right?
link |
The position that one sleeps in.
link |
I fortunately have never had any shoulder issues,
link |
But maybe you could just talk to us a little bit
link |
about sleep and sleep position
link |
for sake of waking position and movement.
link |
Because this, I think, is a very unique
link |
and very powerful way to think about sleep.
link |
This podcast has done a lot of episodes
link |
about keeping the room cool,
link |
getting sunlight in your eyes, et cetera,
link |
how to get into sleep.
link |
But you've talked about physically
link |
what positions might be better to sleep in.
link |
So please enrich us.
link |
Yeah, I mean, first of all,
link |
some people's opinions of that type of content is that
link |
sleep in the position that's most comfortable
link |
so you ensure that you're sleeping.
link |
Great, I understand that.
link |
We all want to sleep.
link |
That's the goal when we put our head on the pillow
link |
is to actually fall asleep and wake up in the morning
link |
and not know what the hell happened unless you had a dream.
link |
But beyond that, there are certainly
link |
physical components to sleep that.
link |
That is why a lot of times people will wake up and say like,
link |
that you can incur pretty serious injuries in sleep.
link |
People will wake up and have like a shoulder
link |
that did not bother them at all,
link |
be humming the next day or even for weeks after
link |
because of the one sleep position they put themselves in
link |
in a prolonged way.
link |
And they happen to have a deep sleep
link |
even through the discomfort.
link |
That can do actually some damage.
link |
So it's understandable that the body can incur
link |
some strain and stress if you're sleeping in the wrong way.
link |
One of the things I say right off the bat is
link |
sleeping on your stomach
link |
doesn't really have many benefits.
link |
You're putting yourself into a position that is,
link |
depending upon the orientation of your mattress
link |
or how many pillows you're using,
link |
but you're basically putting yourselves
link |
into excessive extension of the lumbar spine,
link |
which for most people isn't very good.
link |
If you're a disc patient,
link |
I guess that might be helpful for relocating the disc.
link |
But I mean, for the most part,
link |
your hands are then usually not at your sides,
link |
but they're up under your arms.
link |
So you've got them into sort of internal rotation
link |
up over elevation in your head.
link |
It's just not a great position.
link |
You also have to crank your neck for one side or the other
link |
in order to breathe,
link |
or you're going to be face down straight into the pillow.
link |
So I would skip that one.
link |
And there's some people that are total belly sleepers.
link |
And I would just say, listen,
link |
I don't think that is the most healthful,
link |
long-term way for you to sleep.
link |
Try to adopt a different position.
link |
Sleeping on your side oftentimes
link |
is also brought along with that.
link |
The legs, knees coming up towards the chest,
link |
prolonged hip flexion.
link |
Listen, we're doing enough of that during the day.
link |
We don't need to do it.
link |
We don't need to do it like 10 hours or eight hours
link |
or something at night like that.
link |
And it just is reinforcing.
link |
And as we said too, let's say you trained that day.
link |
You're just reinforcing muscle shortening overnight.
link |
Where the body is healing
link |
and trying to create some changes in your body.
link |
One of the reasons why I recommend stretching
link |
or static stretching prior to going to bed.
link |
A lot of people don't really want to do it at that point
link |
because it could take 10 minutes, five, 10 minutes,
link |
depending upon how many muscles you have to stretch.
link |
But it's good to try to establish
link |
just longer length temporarily
link |
prior to going into a state
link |
where you're going to be non-moving and recovering
link |
and creating new changes in the muscles.
link |
So that kind of, I don't say it doesn't rule out
link |
The side sleeper could be very, very helpful
link |
for somebody that has apnea or other conditions.
link |
So again, it's not an all or nothing approach,
link |
but it just is something that you need to pay attention to.
link |
When you are on your back, like you were talking about
link |
and your feet are wedged underneath a tight sheets
link |
at the end of the bed.
link |
And most of us, unless we consciously are pulling them up,
link |
don't prefer our beds to have really loose sheets
link |
at the end of the bed.
link |
It's hard to make the bed in the morning.
link |
Right, so it's like, you're going to want to have them tight.
link |
Well, I'm saying, as you experienced,
link |
you're going to have this prolonged plantar flexion
link |
that's going to likely lead to shorter calves over time
link |
because you're lacking all that length
link |
for that long period of time that you could have
link |
if you just loosened up the sheets
link |
and allowed your feet to just hang out where they are.
link |
Now, the resting position of the ankle
link |
is not in dorsiflexion.
link |
It's going to be still in some plantar flexion,
link |
but not being driven down and pulled down
link |
into that position.
link |
And I think what happens actually
link |
is people who get uncomfortable that way,
link |
even in their sleep, will shift away from that
link |
by turning either onto their side of their stomach.
link |
So there's definitely an impact of the body position
link |
in sleep and figuring out the best way
link |
that you can still sleep, of course, and get your rest,
link |
but have a mindful eye towards what it's doing to your body
link |
and choose the one that's least abrasive to your body
link |
is the way you should go.
link |
Terrific, and again, it's really helped me.
link |
And I am a big believer, based on good science
link |
out of Stanford and elsewhere,
link |
that as much as we can be nasal breathers in sleep,
link |
we probably should be.
link |
I don't know if you've done any content yet
link |
about taping the mouth shut with some medical tape,
link |
but the benefits of nasal breathing and sleep
link |
are pretty tremendous,
link |
but it takes a little bit of training for people to do.
link |
And the training is very simple.
link |
It's a little piece of medical tape.
link |
So again, a topic for another time.
link |
I'm glad you mentioned stretching.
link |
I was going to ask about stretching a little bit later,
link |
but let's talk about stretching.
link |
When's the best time to stretch
link |
for particular types of results?
link |
And maybe you could define
link |
some of the different types of stretching.
link |
So you just mentioned a little bit of,
link |
would you call it light stretching or,
link |
okay, I'm completely naive here on stretching.
link |
So let me just say, I can think of stretching
link |
where I hold the stretch and really try and lengthen,
link |
in air quotes, folks.
link |
I don't want the PTs jumping all over.
link |
I don't know what it is,
link |
but nutrition and the PTs online are really,
link |
they've got pitchforks in both hands, academics.
link |
That's a recent evolution, I think, for sure.
link |
And not the nutrition as much,
link |
but the PTs have become a little bit angry these days.
link |
I see, well, I always say
link |
with feelings of powerlessness comes aggression.
link |
Remember that, folks.
link |
So in any case, they're stretching where I'm,
link |
you know, trying to consciously lengthen,
link |
again, in air quotes, the muscle.
link |
I'm not yanking on the limb or bobbing up and down.
link |
Maybe you could define the different types
link |
of stretching for people.
link |
Maybe give us some rough guidelines
link |
about whether or not to do it cold or warm,
link |
before training, after training, et cetera.
link |
So yeah, there's obviously,
link |
there's a lot of different types of stretching.
link |
They could get even to, you know,
link |
PNF stretching and things that are a little bit more,
link |
you know, niche, but like in general,
link |
the two basic forms of stretching
link |
are active stretching and passive stretching.
link |
And your, you know, your dynamic work
link |
and your passive stretching is done
link |
with the goal of trying to create an increase
link |
in the flexibility of the muscle.
link |
So whether you're actually increasing
link |
the length of that muscle, you know,
link |
more so what you're doing is increasing the resistance
link |
or decreasing the resistance of that muscle
link |
to want to stay at a certain level of flexibility.
link |
So when we can sort of take the brakes off
link |
and allow that muscle to allow us more range of motion,
link |
we're inherently increasing flexibility
link |
without necessarily having to increase
link |
the length of that muscle.
link |
That is usually done at a time far away from your workout
link |
because they have shown where this type of stretching
link |
done prior to an activity.
link |
And it could be like a structured activity,
link |
like lifting, or it could be a little bit less structured,
link |
like competing in a sport in a spontaneous type way.
link |
That there is a period of recalibration
link |
that is needed after doing this,
link |
because you're disrupting the length tension relationship
link |
of the muscle that causes you to not necessarily
link |
be able to rely on these, I've talked about before,
link |
stored motor engrams in your mind in terms of,
link |
this is the pattern for how I swing a golf club, say.
link |
You know, and now introducing a little bit of flexibility
link |
or added flexibility or range
link |
because of the stretching I did before,
link |
it takes maybe a whole or two or three to match up again.
link |
Oh, this is what he's trying to do,
link |
that golf swing thing that I remembered again.
link |
Like it's not remembering that every component,
link |
like I have to bend my right wrist back 10 degrees
link |
and then I have to bend my elbow and I have to break,
link |
like your body stores these patterns for motor efficiency.
link |
So, and when I have to start matching up that stored pattern
link |
with what's feeling new because of the increased range,
link |
I can impair performance.
link |
And again, it could happen even in a gym workout
link |
where you're talking about your first, second set,
link |
third set, where maybe the repercussions aren't as big
link |
because I'll just do a few extra sets.
link |
But in performance, if you screw up your first three rounds,
link |
you're playing on a PGA tour and you shoot,
link |
you know, you're six over after three, you're done, you know?
link |
So I think it matters there.
link |
As far as the dynamic, you know, so we relegate that,
link |
as I mentioned, sort of towards the end of the day,
link |
when it's not going to impact performance,
link |
but even maybe have the additional benefit
link |
of creating the feeling of length or the increase
link |
or decrease in resistance to this length
link |
at a time when I know my body is going to try to tend
link |
to heal and heal shorter, never longer, but heal shorter.
link |
So if I can introduce a little bit of that extra length
link |
or decreased resistance to that length,
link |
it's a better time to do it.
link |
So I think it promotes a better recovery.
link |
Sorry to interrupt.
link |
So stretching later in the day,
link |
because I'm intrigued by this concept of heal shorter.
link |
So part of the healing and recovery process
link |
means a shortening of the muscles.
link |
This is the tensing up in sleep.
link |
Could you elaborate just a bit on that
link |
and then sorry to break your flow, but then to continue?
link |
No, just basically, you know, what's been shown
link |
is that when the repair process,
link |
muscular repair from let's say strength training
link |
the repair process usually results in a muscle
link |
that is slightly shorter rather than increased in length.
link |
You know, it's just that it's, you know,
link |
muscles prefer to sort of ratchet their way down
link |
into that contraction and then maintain
link |
that more comfortable length tension relationship.
link |
So when you're sleeping, it tends to err on the side
link |
of shorter rather than longer,
link |
when ideally we don't really want that.
link |
We want to maintain as much of that length
link |
because with more length, we actually have more leverage,
link |
right, that muscle has more leverage to contract.
link |
If it was all the way contracted, you know,
link |
you really can't obviously, you know,
link |
generate much force in a muscle
link |
that's already maximally contracted.
link |
So I think we want to do something that we,
link |
whatever we can, whatever little weapons we have
link |
in our arsenal that could allow us to do this
link |
And again, it's just making a conscious choice
link |
to do it at a time of the day
link |
that makes a little bit more sense.
link |
Dynamic stretching is really not done for that purpose
link |
of trying to create any type of feeling of act
link |
or increasing the potential length,
link |
as you said, of the muscle,
link |
but more so the readiness of the muscle to perform
link |
and increasing, you know, exploring the ends
link |
of that range of motion in a more dynamic way
link |
so you're not hanging out there
link |
and disrupting that length tension relationship
link |
but just sort of touching the ends of those barriers
link |
so that when you feel movement again,
link |
it feels looser, it feels more ready.
link |
And obviously at the same time, warming up, blood flow,
link |
all the benefits we get from just warming up in general.
link |
So like, you know, that's the series
link |
you've probably seen a bunch of times,
link |
but like, you know, leg swings and, you know,
link |
butt kicks and, you know, lunge, walking lunges
link |
and all types of drills.
link |
Toe touches, all those kinds of drills,
link |
those active stretching drills or, you know,
link |
lunging with rotations of the upper body
link |
to try to get some of the thoracic spine involved too.
link |
Those are the drills that people will do
link |
prior to training that are both excitatory
link |
in terms of just the nervous system,
link |
but also helpful for just the general warmup of the body
link |
because of the blood flow,
link |
but from a muscle readiness standpoint,
link |
not impairing the performance while at the same time
link |
exploring the increased ranges.
link |
Because as you know, the first toe touch you do
link |
is not as high as the last toe touch you do.
link |
For me, it doesn't even include the toe.
link |
Right, the shin touch, knee touch.
link |
Toe touch attempt.
link |
Right, right, so like, you know,
link |
those are going to improve with each subsequent rep
link |
and I think that's what people actually,
link |
like when you can see those actual changes
link |
from rep one to rep seven, you just feel ready.
link |
You feel more alert and ready to go in your workout.
link |
So the dynamic type of stretching,
link |
and I mentioned earlier on, you know,
link |
like what I've had to do to sort of increase
link |
my warmup focus, you know,
link |
I think that's more of what I try to do these days.
link |
I try to be a little bit more alert to the fact that,
link |
you know, my body's not ready.
link |
When I was working with Antonio Brown,
link |
I remember like he would spend 20 minutes,
link |
30 minutes on all dynamic work.
link |
And I've never seen anybody spend that long
link |
on their dynamic work,
link |
but like he said, he just didn't feel right and ready to go
link |
unless he did a lot of that.
link |
And I mean, you know, his dynamic stretching routine
link |
would be a workout for most everybody.
link |
You know, it's crazy how much he did.
link |
These pro athletes are amazing
link |
and you've had the great fortune of working with
link |
and improving their abilities.
link |
But I can only imagine,
link |
cause I also imagine he's pretty strong in the gym also.
link |
I mean, you know, it always amazes me
link |
the guys that make it to that level,
link |
no matter what sport they do,
link |
they're so gifted in everything, you know,
link |
like David Wright used to make me laugh all the time
link |
with the Mets because no matter what I ping pong,
link |
you know, like anything,
link |
because of his hand-eye coordination,
link |
like anything, you know, great at.
link |
Jump rope, I remember he hadn't done a lot of jump rope
link |
and I think jump rope is one of the best things
link |
you could do from a conditioning standpoint.
link |
It's actually, it's fairly interesting.
link |
It's not just, you know,
link |
it's not too harsh on the joints,
link |
depending on, you know, even though it's a ballistic move.
link |
And he wasn't, I have to admit, you know,
link |
if you listen to this, he's going to want to kill me,
link |
but I was better at him than at jump roping.
link |
One of the only things I could do.
link |
And then I gave him about five days
link |
and he completely blew me out of the water
link |
to the point where I could never keep up with him anymore.
link |
He made it look effortless.
link |
It's like, that's where the athlete in someone comes out.
link |
No matter what they pick up, they're good at it.
link |
And I think that when you see guys like this in the gym,
link |
like their strength levels tend to be pretty damn good
link |
and they're in their abilities, their coordination,
link |
their everything just tends to sort of be good
link |
at that level, you know, and it sort of amazes me
link |
why those guys can go pick up a golf club, you know,
link |
and go shoot 72, you know,
link |
and having never really played, you know,
link |
they're just naturally good at whatever they do.
link |
Yeah, I have a couple,
link |
I'm smiling because I have a couple of really close friends
link |
who did a number of years,
link |
some several decades in the SEAL teams.
link |
And I don't know that their skill level at everything
link |
is so high as you're describing for athletes,
link |
but their level of competitiveness is beyond.
link |
I ocean swim with one.
link |
There's no chance that I'm going to, you know,
link |
out swim Pat ever, ever.
link |
He actually goes back and forth sometimes
link |
just to check up on me, which I appreciate.
link |
I haven't drowned yet, but the, but in addition to that,
link |
you know, we could play horseshoes
link |
and it's like this switch that just flips on.
link |
Like he's going to murder me, horseshoes,
link |
and a very nice guy, right?
link |
In general, they tend to be very nice,
link |
but the level of competitiveness is kind of unreal.
link |
They're selected for it.
link |
They're trying to beat themselves.
link |
They're not even trying to beat you.
link |
I'm not even in the competition.
link |
You're not even in the competition.
link |
You're not even there.
link |
Now I won't feel so bad or worse.
link |
It's, it's a remarkable thing.
link |
I'm glad you mentioned jump roping.
link |
I used to skip rope for warmup for boxing, you know,
link |
like three, three minute rounds or something like that.
link |
But I'm glad you brought it up because skipping rope
link |
is something that obviously has a cardiovascular component.
link |
There's the conditioning component, there's timing,
link |
and it is kind of interesting, right?
link |
You can, it's frustrating when you don't get it,
link |
especially when it whips you on the ear,
link |
if you're using a proper rope.
link |
I'm just curious if you could just give us a quick
link |
skipping rope one-on-one.
link |
Do you like to see people jumping with both feet and toes?
link |
We'll link to a video if there was one and I missed it.
link |
Do you like to see people doing high knees?
link |
Do you like people basically like shuffling?
link |
You want to see people doing double dutch?
link |
What do you want to see people doing over time?
link |
All of the above, maybe not the double dutch,
link |
but all of the above.
link |
I mean, I think that that's the cool thing about it, right?
link |
Like once we sort of master the skill,
link |
cause for all of us,
link |
that first jump with the two feet going together
link |
Cause you just got to time that rope,
link |
you got to time your jump.
link |
And then we get bored as we often do as humans,
link |
we get bored with what we can do
link |
and want to take on new challenges.
link |
So then it becomes one leg at a time,
link |
or then it becomes side to side hops, right?
link |
All of those things are beneficial,
link |
I believe neurologically to enhancing the ability
link |
to do the skill as a whole,
link |
but also just because I'm such a believer in training
link |
in all three planes.
link |
So like just doing straight up and down
link |
versus now I can do frontal plane side to side motion.
link |
And then I can even do small little twists
link |
or corkscrews we call them.
link |
It requires a different,
link |
you would know more about it better than I do.
link |
It requires different neurological patterns
link |
to be able to coordinate that
link |
because you're changing the orientation
link |
of your body and space.
link |
So it's not just that I'm changing the exercise,
link |
but I'm changing how my body interprets that exercise
link |
because what's happening to my body and space.
link |
So I love, you know, whatever people wind up doing,
link |
I just started following this young woman on Instagram
link |
who is like, I'll give her a plug.
link |
I think it's like Anna Skips or something.
link |
And she is ridiculous.
link |
Like I watch her and I'm like mesmerized
link |
at what she can do with the rope.
link |
You know, it's like, is an extremely athletic endeavor
link |
when it gets to be at that level
link |
in the speed and the precision in the, you know,
link |
and you know, I think one of the goals
link |
that you want to be able to have is
link |
to where you're feeling as if you're almost
link |
effortlessly dancing without a rope,
link |
like where you're just bouncing off
link |
of the ball of your foot.
link |
And it's an important skill to learn too,
link |
whether you go back to run or, you know,
link |
or even jog, right?
link |
Just like, you know, more casual running.
link |
Learning how to land is so important.
link |
One of the drills that people should try
link |
is like try to jump on your heels.
link |
So just stand up, pull your toes off the ground, right?
link |
And just jump from your heels and land on your heels.
link |
You'll feel it in your jaw.
link |
You'll literally feel your jaw rattle
link |
when you land on your heels.
link |
There is no shock absorption capabilities
link |
through your heels.
link |
Meantime, a lot of people land on their heels a lot
link |
And you're just, your body's not built
link |
to absorb the forces like the ball of your foot could.
link |
It's really built as a spring.
link |
And the foot is, to me, as a physical therapist,
link |
the foot has always been one of the most amazing,
link |
you know, you talk about having bad feet.
link |
It looks like I got flippers if I took my shoes off,
link |
like when I'm wearing scuba fins.
link |
There is no adaptability of that foot to the surface.
link |
You know, when it's completely caved
link |
and flattened like that,
link |
the job of the foot is to be adaptable.
link |
Well, there is, maybe there is some adaptability
link |
because it's so floppy.
link |
But at the same time, at some point,
link |
that critical juncture,
link |
when you're going to then step through
link |
and you need to be able to push off,
link |
the foot has to actually change this in the mid-foot itself
link |
to become a rigid lever, as they call it.
link |
You're going from a mobile adapter to a rigid lever.
link |
That rigid lever literally locks up the mid-tarsal joint
link |
to become solid so that you can push off of it
link |
If you lack that capability,
link |
all those stresses that are supposed to be borne
link |
by the foot go up into the ankle, into the knee,
link |
into the hip, into the low back.
link |
So learning how to land and start to train your body
link |
to experience ground reaction forces the right way
link |
is so critical to all other function
link |
and all other disability up the kinetic chain.
link |
And jumping rope is like one of the best ways
link |
to learn how to do that.
link |
Great, I own a jump rope.
link |
I love doing it in the morning
link |
while I get sunlight in my eyes.
link |
It's actually a protocol I picked up from Tim Ferriss
link |
who mentioned, because listeners of my podcast
link |
know I'm like a broken record with get sunlight
link |
in your eyes, even through cloud cover.
link |
It just sets your sleep rhythms and your waking rhythms,
link |
the yada yada, on and on.
link |
But sometimes they'd be kind of boring for people
link |
and I want to get them off their phone.
link |
So jumping rope is also just a great way to wake up.
link |
So jumping rope can be the cardio workout,
link |
the 15 or 30 minutes.
link |
And there's sort of that hybrid
link |
that we were talking about before of like,
link |
no, you're not necessarily dropping down to the ground
link |
and doing burpees, but I just look at it
link |
as a more athletic endeavor
link |
because of the coordination involved
link |
than just simply walking or jogging.
link |
Yeah, and it's not much of a equipment requirement,
link |
very minimal cost.
link |
You could even use a rope or something if you...
link |
Although we even instruct people that you use no rope
link |
and just pretend, and just move the arms, right?
link |
You're never going to hit the rope, which is good,
link |
but at the same time,
link |
so you're never going to know if you're doing it wrong,
link |
but at least you can move through that
link |
and get the same benefits through the feet.
link |
I told myself before sitting down with you today
link |
that I wasn't going to focus on specific exercises
link |
because there's such a wealth of incredible content
link |
that you put out there that people could just put
link |
into YouTube or elsewhere and arrive at the proper way
link |
to do a chin or a dip or for whatever purpose,
link |
but there's one exercise in one particular motion
link |
that I'd like to discuss for a moment
link |
because I believe that learning about this cautionary note
link |
from you is one of the reasons
link |
that I've maintained steady training for 30 years
link |
with no major injury, knock on wood,
link |
and that's the upright row.
link |
One thing that, whether or not people weight train or not-
link |
Do we censor this podcast?
link |
Are we censoring to be beeped this out or no?
link |
Oh, do you get beef about this?
link |
We always get beef in any social media platform
link |
we ever put out, but like, no, I get some from it,
link |
but I'm fully prepared to defend myself.
link |
But here's the reason for asking about this.
link |
I never really cared much for upright rows.
link |
It's not an exercise I tend to do,
link |
but one thing that's apparent in all my colleagues
link |
and every child I see and every adult I see
link |
is that almost everybody is in inward rotation now.
link |
So folks, I think I learned this from you also,
link |
if you stand up straight
link |
and then you just point your thumbs out,
link |
like a thumbs up, but your hands are down,
link |
you're pointing your thumbs straight out,
link |
ideally they would go straight out.
link |
Most people, the thumbs are gonna be pointing
link |
toward one another
link |
because most people are starting to look somewhere
link |
between a non-human primate and a melted candle.
link |
You know, bent at the hips, et cetera, from too much sitting.
link |
We're all sitting, we're in inward rotation,
link |
but I learned from you that the upright row
link |
compromises some important aspects
link |
of our shoulder mechanics
link |
and can be actually sort of a dangerous movement
link |
I'm sure there's a safe way for people to do it,
link |
but so I've always made it a point now
link |
on the basis of this advice to A, not do upright rows,
link |
but I wasn't doing them before,
link |
but to really strive for upright rows
link |
but I wasn't doing them before, but to really strive for
link |
external rotation on things like bench dips
link |
on a number of different things.
link |
Whenever I can, I try and go into external rotation
link |
and provide, you know, without looking like an idiot
link |
walking around with my palms facing outward.
link |
Please tell us about internal external rotation.
link |
The upright row is one aspect of that,
link |
but why this is so important, not just for weight training,
link |
but as in terms of posture and mechanics
link |
and not looking like a melted candle
link |
or partially melted candle.
link |
I actually love it.
link |
I am happy to talk about it
link |
because I love the shoulder as a joint.
link |
I think PTs tend to fall in love with certain areas
link |
and the shoulder is one of the cool areas for me
link |
and it's like the foot is,
link |
but like the shoulder has the most mobility in the body
link |
of any joint, but it's also got the least stability, right?
link |
There's always that trade off of mobility and stability.
link |
So your stability comes from, you know, certain muscle groups
link |
and one of the ones that the only muscle group
link |
that actually externally rotates the shoulder
link |
is going to be the rotator cuff, okay?
link |
And unless you were devoted to training
link |
through external rotation and exercises
link |
that are going to externally rotate the shoulder,
link |
you're not training that function.
link |
And it's so easy for us in everyday life,
link |
especially those that aren't training
link |
to not ever really undergo any of those stresses
link |
that could be beneficial to counteracting
link |
what happens freely and naturally,
link |
which is internal rotation.
link |
So when you think about the imbalance created just by nature
link |
and how we live our lives,
link |
internal rotation far, far, far outweighs external rotation.
link |
So you need to address it.
link |
And the reason why you need to address it
link |
is because you need to normalize
link |
those biomechanics to the shoulder
link |
if you want their long-term health.
link |
And one of the functions of the shoulder
link |
is to raise our arm up over our head.
link |
And if we do that from an internally rotated position,
link |
we're going to have a higher likelihood
link |
of creating stress inside that joint.
link |
Funny thing is, I talked about before,
link |
my PT brethren can be somewhat angry these days.
link |
I don't know what happened, but fairly angry.
link |
They want to discredit the existence
link |
of something like shoulder impingement,
link |
which I don't know how, I mean, certain studies,
link |
look at, we all read studies
link |
and studies will say one thing one day
link |
and potentially conflict entirely in a different direction.
link |
Some studies will point to the non-existence
link |
of a shoulder impingement.
link |
Meanwhile, we have thankfully digital motion x-rays
link |
that will literally show the impingement occur
link |
in real time, in real function.
link |
And that's one of the limitations,
link |
I'm off on a tangent here,
link |
but like those types of x-rays
link |
or that type of fluoroscopy that we have nowadays,
link |
like gives us such insight that we never had before
link |
because we're taking static x-rays
link |
of someone laying down on a table.
link |
You know, when I want to see what happens
link |
when he actually raised my arm up over my head in function
link |
and the tools now exist to do that,
link |
we see the problems occurring
link |
because in order to get normal mechanics
link |
and free up the joint maximally inside,
link |
you need to externally rotate as you raise the arm up.
link |
So if your muscles aren't firing
link |
and they're not necessarily as strong
link |
as the internal rotation bias that pulls them in,
link |
you're asking for trouble every time you do that.
link |
Well, this exercise is literally putting you
link |
in elevation and internal rotation.
link |
And if you were to walk into a PT office
link |
and someone said, I think he's got an impingement,
link |
will you diagnose him?
link |
There's a test called a Hawkins Kennedy test.
link |
And I would put you in the position,
link |
I know we're not visible at this point through the podcast,
link |
but I'll put you in this position here
link |
where I have your arm elevated
link |
and your hand pretty much under your chin
link |
pushing downward on that
link |
to create that internal shoulder rotation.
link |
Pretty much the exact position that we're in
link |
when we're holding a bar in an upright row.
link |
Some will say, well, just don't go so high,
link |
go only up to the level of the chest,
link |
but you're still in this internally rotated position.
link |
The thing that I think frustrates me the most
link |
about the exercise is that I have an alternative
link |
and the alternative does the same thing
link |
in terms of helping the muscles grow
link |
by simply fixing the biomechanics of the exercise,
link |
but just allowing the hands to go higher than the elbows.
link |
So instead of the elbows being higher than the hand,
link |
which drives you into internal rotation,
link |
if the elbow is lower than the hand,
link |
the hand being higher here, I'm in external rotation.
link |
And I could do something called a high pull
link |
and still get the same abduction of the arm
link |
and still get the same benefits
link |
of the shoulders, the delts and the traps
link |
without having to undergo any of the stresses
link |
that would come from the somewhat awkward movement
link |
of an upright row.
link |
And for those listening,
link |
we'll put a link to a short clip of what this looks like,
link |
but basically what Jeff is doing
link |
and tell me if I'm describing this incorrectly or correctly.
link |
Jeff is taking your two thumbs and pointing behind you
link |
and elbows up kind of near the chin
link |
and pointing behind you, like, oh, headed that way,
link |
like somebody directing the airplane,
link |
like come back, come back, come back.
link |
I forget what they call that.
link |
I think it's called semaphorin,
link |
is the action of like where they direct the planes
link |
or something, the flags or whatever.
link |
Someone will of course tell me I'm wrong about that too,
link |
which is why I say these things,
link |
because I like being told what the correct answer is.
link |
In any case, so this replaces the upright row
link |
and probably does a number of other important things as well.
link |
Yeah, well, again, listen,
link |
without naming names or programs or anything like that,
link |
when I got involved in Athlean-X
link |
when I first started my online presence,
link |
there was a very, very, very popular program
link |
that was out there that I just, for fun,
link |
I wanted to, as a PT, this is the nerdy things we do,
link |
but I wanted to evaluate the workout structure.
link |
And I went and I looked at every rep
link |
over the course of a week,
link |
and there were something like 890 repetitions
link |
or something done and zero of them
link |
were dedicated to external rotation of the shoulder.
link |
So if you think about it, I mean, yeah,
link |
it was a very popular program
link |
that was done by a lot of people.
link |
There was no focus at all,
link |
no dedicated focus towards creating a balance
link |
to an action that is so predominant.
link |
And remember, it's not just because we sit with that posture
link |
but the fact that our chest can internally rotate,
link |
our lats can internally rotate.
link |
There's like muscle, other big muscles that participate
link |
in things that we do every day
link |
that will further internally rotate the shoulder.
link |
The only weapons we have for external rotation
link |
are those little rotator cuff muscles
link |
and three of them actually, three of the four.
link |
And the job is to sort of actively
link |
and consciously train them
link |
through really the boring exercises, right?
link |
Like you've seen them with the band,
link |
you anchor a band to a pole,
link |
you stand with the band in the opposite hand.
link |
So if it's anchored to the pole on my left side,
link |
I've got the band on my right side,
link |
and you see people where they kind of rotate their hand
link |
Again, kind of what you were saying,
link |
but at a lower elevation,
link |
taking the back of my hand
link |
and trying to point it to somebody behind me.
link |
Well, that is one of the ways to train the muscle.
link |
It's just a one function of the shoulder,
link |
external rotation of the shoulder,
link |
and you need to do it.
link |
And again, it's not that
link |
if somebody was doing more external rotation work,
link |
could they absorb the upright row better?
link |
Probably, because as they elevated the arm,
link |
they probably have a little bit more
link |
of a contribution from the rotator cuff
link |
to what one of the functions is to centralize
link |
the head of the humerus inside of the glenoid,
link |
you know, the capsule.
link |
So as it rises up,
link |
it stays central as opposed to migrating up,
link |
because the deltoid likes to pull up.
link |
So if the rotator cuff has some ability
link |
to counteract the upward pull of the delt,
link |
then it can maintain a more healthy relationship
link |
with overhead movement.
link |
So just realizing that that function
link |
is only gained through doing these exercises,
link |
you know, we would probably dedicate more time there,
link |
but the upright row might be better absorbed by that person
link |
because they have a little bit more strength.
link |
Because if you have an exercise that does the same thing
link |
for what you're trying to do muscularly
link |
to build the muscles that it affects,
link |
why wouldn't you just do it where you can still see,
link |
actually pick up more repetitions of external rotation?
link |
You know, so you're getting none of the harm,
link |
all of the benefits, I see zero reason
link |
to ever do the upright row.
link |
And people will argue, this is the way they argue,
link |
that I've done this for 30 years and I've never hurt myself.
link |
And I always say, yet, yet.
link |
Like, hey listen, the goal is to not hurt yourself ever.
link |
So even if you, it's sort of like, you know,
link |
the championship game, you know,
link |
you might play the game of your life,
link |
but if you lose, you lost.
link |
And when you get into the end of the record books,
link |
you're still lost.
link |
So even if you had the game of your life, you lost.
link |
I don't care if you do it for 30 years, no pain,
link |
you're still doing it and there's no pain.
link |
I'm giving you an option that's going to give you
link |
the same results in the exercise that you're seeking.
link |
That's why you're doing the exercise
link |
without the possibility of having the bad outcome
link |
So, you know, I get a little bit, you know,
link |
defensive of the move, but I feel like it's like,
link |
why would you do that, you know?
link |
No, it makes sense.
link |
Being able to train for a long period of time
link |
and feel good, you know, I'm proud to say, you know,
link |
and I don't have the kind of genetics
link |
or like we don't have a lot of impressive athletes
link |
in our family tree or anything.
link |
There are some fit individuals, some less fit individuals,
link |
but I really believe it's about putting in the work
link |
consistently over time.
link |
And the more often you can wake up not in pain, the better.
link |
And so, you know, I think that being in external rotation
link |
as often as possible is good.
link |
This is actually a good friend who's a yoga teacher told me
link |
this is also a problem with the yogis.
link |
You know, a lot of, all the downward dog stuff.
link |
For those listening, you can think of inward rotation
link |
as like thumbs down.
link |
Just like thumbs down, inward rotation isn't bad,
link |
but less thumbs down, more thumbs up is external rotation.
link |
So for those just listening, maybe that gives a visual.
link |
The more exercise you can do in external rotation,
link |
the better it seems on average.
link |
I'd love to chat with you just a little bit more
link |
about biomechanics.
link |
And this is a personal thing that, again,
link |
your content really helped solve for me.
link |
One is I thought I had lower back pain,
link |
but I had sciatica so badly that on a few trips,
link |
I worked trips years ago when I was doing
link |
a lot more international travel.
link |
I mean, it was hard to stand up sometimes.
link |
I mean, like excruciating pain.
link |
I didn't want to take medication.
link |
I didn't want to do back surgery.
link |
In the end, it turns out it wasn't a back injury at all.
link |
And one of the things that helped fix it
link |
was this just learning about this thing
link |
called the medial glute.
link |
And you had a video that said fix back pain
link |
and then you quite accurately say
link |
that some back pain isn't really about the back at all.
link |
And it had me do an exercise
link |
or allowed me to try an exercise where I lay on my side
link |
and essentially pointing my toe down,
link |
the top toe down, almost like pointing a toe down,
link |
and then would slowly lift the leg up
link |
while pointing the toe down.
link |
Maybe I got it incorrect here.
link |
And then holding that, and there's a muscle
link |
that sort of sits at the top of the glute.
link |
It kind of peeks out every once in a while.
link |
You can feel it there with your thumb,
link |
which is I think that you had pushed back on it a bit,
link |
creating that mind muscle link again.
link |
And there with proprioception,
link |
the actual feeling of a muscle literally with a limb,
link |
we know based on the neural circuits for movement
link |
that that enhances the contractile ability of a muscle.
link |
So like if you touch your bicep,
link |
you literally can contract it more strongly.
link |
And this makes total sense
link |
based on neuromuscular physiology.
link |
So it had me do that repeatedly.
link |
And I started doing that in my hotel room
link |
and the pain started to disappear.
link |
And then it came back again in the afternoon.
link |
So I did it again in the afternoon.
link |
So this is something I did for three or four days.
link |
And lo and behold, my back pain's gone.
link |
I handed this off to my father
link |
because he, like me, has a slightly lower right shoulder.
link |
I think our gait is probably thrown off by this.
link |
It's probably a genetic thing.
link |
He handed off to somebody.
link |
It turns out that we don't suffer from back pain.
link |
And in fact, now I don't suffer from any pain
link |
because I was doing this exercise,
link |
which I think is helping my medial glute.
link |
Two reasons why I raised this.
link |
One, I know a lot of guys who have right side sciatica
link |
because people keep the wallet there is one idea,
link |
or left side sciatica.
link |
There are a lot of people, male and female,
link |
who think they have back pain
link |
when they don't actually have back pain.
link |
And the other thing is that,
link |
is about a general question about biomechanics
link |
or statement about biomechanics.
link |
I had of a feeling that a lot of what people think
link |
is back pain or knee pain or neck pain
link |
or headache or shoulder pain
link |
is actually the consequence of something that's happening
link |
above or below that site of pain.
link |
And this is a whole landscape of stuff related to PT
link |
and recovery and pain management.
link |
But maybe you just educate us a bit on this
link |
and why this works.
link |
What is the medial glute?
link |
Why did it make my so-called back pain disappear?
link |
And how should people think about pain?
link |
And I like to use this as a segue
link |
to get into a little bit deeper discussion
link |
about pain and recovery.
link |
So this is definitely like a big cornucopia of PT stuff here
link |
but like, and this is what I love.
link |
So first of all, that video,
link |
it's my proudest video that I have.
link |
And the reason being is that it's helped so many people.
link |
Like we get comments on that video every day.
link |
I don't even know how many of you
link |
just got now 30 some odd million or there's a lot of-
link |
We will link to it.
link |
Yeah, there's a lot of views.
link |
And quite honestly, it was a little bit of an afterthought
link |
video in terms of its origin.
link |
I think that that day, maybe Jesse was having some problems
link |
or something like that, a little bit of low back pain.
link |
And I showed him and it helped right away.
link |
I was like, well, we can make a video on it
link |
because this will help people, not everybody.
link |
If you have a real disc problem, it's not going to help
link |
because you're not changing the structural problem
link |
But as you said, a lot of people don't.
link |
And even disc issues, a lot of them are non-operative.
link |
So you'd want to try these things first.
link |
As far as what you sort of experienced,
link |
sometimes as that glute medius really tightens down
link |
and that's again from poor biomechanics
link |
up and down the kinetic chain,
link |
it can actually press on the sciatic nerve
link |
and give you what they call a pseudo sciatica.
link |
Where it's not like you're making it up.
link |
It's not like you're not feeling that pain
link |
over that same sciatic distribution,
link |
but it's not caused from a disc.
link |
It's not caused from something mechanical there.
link |
It's caused by the fact that this glute medius
link |
has posturally become a problem for you or weak
link |
because you don't train it and you need to address it.
link |
So not unlike any other muscle in the body,
link |
there are common trigger points and common areas
link |
where the muscle will become tightened or painful
link |
or spasm and you can basically apply pressure
link |
to these areas and then sort of thread that muscle
link |
through the pressure by pushing down through there
link |
and then contracting the muscle,
link |
which is why you go through that action of,
link |
I think we call it a toe stabber,
link |
but like stabbing down and lifting up
link |
and stabbing down and lifting up,
link |
taking that glute medius through its function
link |
so that it's basically kind of working underneath
link |
the downward pressure of the finger.
link |
And that tends to help you to almost need out
link |
what might be that trigger point.
link |
And that's why people can see immediate relief there
link |
because once the trigger point lets go, it feels like,
link |
and that's what the comments are in that video.
link |
Like my God, I literally, I couldn't walk.
link |
I've been on my hotel floor.
link |
I did this and I'm fixed.
link |
And meanwhile, then it could come back
link |
because your body is like, well,
link |
I like being more like this.
link |
This is how I've been ingrained to be.
link |
So it might come back,
link |
but then when you do another round of it
link |
and another round of it,
link |
and then finally it starts to say, all right,
link |
I'm not going to do that anymore.
link |
It kind of eases up and you can relieve yourself
link |
of those trigger points.
link |
You could do that up and down the back.
link |
There's other people that get that
link |
and that sort of inside their shoulder blade,
link |
that same type of cramping in another area.
link |
But once that takes place,
link |
well then the job that I think people have
link |
is like become educated that the glute medius
link |
is different than the glute maximus.
link |
Their functions are different.
link |
You have to work on not just extending the hip,
link |
but also abduction of the hip,
link |
external rotation of the hip.
link |
Same thing as in the shoulder.
link |
And this actually segues nicely
link |
into the whole concept you were talking about.
link |
Like the body is like a mirror image.
link |
The hip is like the shoulder, right?
link |
The ankle is the wrist.
link |
The foot is the hand.
link |
Like the knee is the elbow.
link |
They're two hinge joints.
link |
They function that way.
link |
Well, with the shoulder,
link |
you've got that mobility that comes
link |
from having all that freedom of motion,
link |
but the stability is lacking.
link |
Well, the same thing with the hip.
link |
Like you've got mobility,
link |
but if you don't fully stabilize it
link |
by training all of the muscles of the hip,
link |
and if you don't strengthen
link |
the external rotation of the hip,
link |
then you're gonna have issues.
link |
Like it's not biomechanically gonna work the same way.
link |
If you think of the body as a series of bands
link |
pulling in different directions
link |
at different levels of tension,
link |
you're being pulled into one direction or the other
link |
just by the balance of tension from one weak area
link |
to one dominantly tight area.
link |
And you need to make sure
link |
that you can sort of balance this out
link |
in order to eliminate some of the adaptations
link |
and compensations that happen.
link |
So what I say when we look at sort of the body as a whole,
link |
most often wherever you're feeling the pain
link |
is absolutely not to blame.
link |
There's not blame.
link |
It is somewhere above or below as you hinted at.
link |
You know, you're talking about the knee
link |
is my favorite example of it.
link |
Whenever you have knee pain,
link |
patellar tendonitis, which I have forever,
link |
I've had bad, bad cases of patellar tendonitis
link |
where squatting is very difficult for me.
link |
It's not the knee.
link |
The knee is literally a hinge joint
link |
that there's minor rotation capabilities in the knee,
link |
but it's a hinge joint.
link |
And it's being impacted by the hip and the ankle
link |
As I said before, how critical the foot is.
link |
If you thought of the knee being
link |
like the middle of a train track
link |
where the femur down your thigh
link |
and your shin down below your knee were the train track,
link |
what would happen if the foot collapses at the bottom?
link |
All of a sudden that train track on the bottom
link |
gets torqued just a little bit.
link |
Well, who's going to feel that the most?
link |
The area where it's torquing, which is at the knee.
link |
So the stresses are going to be felt there.
link |
Meanwhile, the problem is the foot
link |
or the problem is the ankle.
link |
People that are chronic ankle sprainers
link |
are almost always going to wind up having back pain
link |
because the ankle sprain causes weakness and maladaptations
link |
in the ankle that then gets connected through the chain.
link |
Because now once I distort the ankle and the shin,
link |
now the knee is trying to maintain
link |
its ability to hinge smoothly.
link |
So it torques on the femur to do that.
link |
Well, the femur is now inside the hip joint
link |
pulling on the pelvis and the pelvis is out of whack.
link |
So it really is fascinating.
link |
Like it's one of my favorite things about how the body works
link |
is like how interconnected it is
link |
and how one little thing somewhere
link |
causes repercussions somewhere else.
link |
And the easiest way to find out what your problem is
link |
is to say, okay, I know where my symptom is,
link |
but I got to find someone who can help me
link |
find the source somewhere else.
link |
Because it is going to be usually either above or below.
link |
Mostly usually below
link |
because it usually translates up the kinetic chain.
link |
But usually it's going to be below where the real source is.
link |
So people with low back pain usually have hip issues,
link |
weaknesses, tightnesses, flexibility issues.
link |
It's almost always below.
link |
When you get into really high performance athletics though,
link |
it almost works the other way.
link |
Like where we have pitchers who can't,
link |
I mean, I'm always fascinated by guys
link |
that have Tommy John issues, you know,
link |
in their elbow, right, pitchers.
link |
Like if you can't externally rotate the shoulder
link |
that we talked about, again,
link |
the ability to get your shoulder back
link |
into external rotation,
link |
well, your arm has to get to a certain position
link |
for release of the baseball.
link |
And if it can't get there,
link |
cause you can't externally rotate the shoulder to get there,
link |
then the elbow has to sort of torque more
link |
in order to allow the arm to get back further.
link |
And it will try to take some of that motion
link |
from a joint that's not really, again,
link |
another, you know, the hinge joint,
link |
really capable of doing that.
link |
So it starts to stress that medial elbow ligament
link |
to get a little bit further back
link |
because the shoulder's not working.
link |
And that just ultimately places strain on the elbow.
link |
So when you see a guy that has pain that floats around,
link |
a pitcher that floats around their arm,
link |
all that is is sort of this balance of compensation.
link |
Once his shoulder elbow starts hurting,
link |
then he can't do the, get the range from the elbow.
link |
So he tries to dig a little bit further back
link |
into external rotation
link |
and then the rotator cuff gets inflamed.
link |
And then he feels that's inflamed.
link |
So, and by the way, during that time period,
link |
it takes some of the strain off the elbow
link |
so the elbow feels better.
link |
Then he decides, okay, now I got the extra rotation,
link |
but I'm getting too much of that.
link |
So now I start straining the elbow again
link |
and it keeps going through this cycle.
link |
So your body is very smart
link |
and it's going to compensate every single time.
link |
It's going to find the compensation,
link |
but there's no guarantee that that conversation
link |
doesn't leave you with a whole host of other issues.
link |
Yeah, it's fascinating.
link |
In another lifetime, I would have gone and been a PT,
link |
although it sounds like the community among PTs online.
link |
I don't know what, listen, we're good people, but it's like.
link |
Yeah, scientists and neuroscientists
link |
can get into pretty intense battles.
link |
You know, coming from the academic community,
link |
you know, the etiquette is so different online
link |
because I would say, you know, I think in person,
link |
people would probably behave a bit differently.
link |
They shake your hand and say hello.
link |
Yeah, they shake your hand and say hello.
link |
And there's also, look, I'll just be very direct about this.
link |
There are a lot of people online for whom
link |
their only content is pointing out the misunderstandings
link |
or alleged flaws of other people.
link |
There's like, where it's like the bulk of their identity,
link |
which to me is sort of a sad existence,
link |
but you know, there's always more to gain
link |
by thinking about what's possible
link |
and what's new and what's good,
link |
but you know, to each their own demise or win.
link |
I mean, questioning what's out there is healthy,
link |
it's normal, it's great, it actually sparks conversation.
link |
But as you said, some people's existence
link |
is solely to find things to, you know,
link |
nag about and not actually with the goal
link |
being to advance anything, but rather just to, you know.
link |
Yeah, in the world of science,
link |
being skeptical but not cynical is encouraged.
link |
But I would say that the longer that somebody's
link |
in a career path, it's certainly in science or medicine,
link |
and they realize how hard it is to, you know,
link |
to do various studies.
link |
Once they publish a few studies,
link |
generally they sort of get a better understanding
link |
of how the various things are done.
link |
In any case, another, along the lines of pain
link |
and pain relief and misunderstandings
link |
about the origins of pain in the body,
link |
one of the great tools that I picked up from your content,
link |
which has benefited, I know, a huge number of people is,
link |
I think I used to hold weights sometimes
link |
in the tips of my fingers, as opposed to in the meat
link |
of the palm of my hands, and I had elbow pain.
link |
And I always thought that I felt it most
link |
on tricep exercises and pushing exercises,
link |
and I thought I was doing those exercises wrong.
link |
Turns out, toward the end of my pull-ups or my bicep work,
link |
I was letting the weight or the bar drift
link |
into my fingertips, and the mere shift
link |
to making sure that my knuckles were well over the bar
link |
or that the weight was really in the meat of my palms
link |
has completely ameliorated that,
link |
for reasons that you point out,
link |
and maybe you could just share with us why that is.
link |
You have this kind of finger-pull exercise.
link |
Usually when someone says, pull my finger,
link |
it's like a bad middle school or elementary school joke,
link |
Well, this one will say, push your finger.
link |
Yeah, this is fascinating.
link |
This is, because it just shows, again,
link |
how intricate the body is and how responsive
link |
or over-responsive it can be to something so little.
link |
And what you're talking about is that
link |
when you grip a bar, whether it be through a curl
link |
or whether it be, and this is mostly pulling exercises
link |
because the tendency for the bar is gonna be
link |
to fall out of your hand,
link |
not like with a pushing exercise where it's kind of,
link |
you're pushing your hand into the bar.
link |
So on a bench press, say.
link |
That bar can drift just by gravity, doing its thing,
link |
or fatigue of the hand grip strength,
link |
can start to drift further away
link |
towards the distal digits, right,
link |
through those last couple knuckles
link |
that we have on our hands.
link |
And though our hand can still hold it there,
link |
the muscles are not equipped to handle those types of loads.
link |
And that can start at a very, I'm not gonna say light,
link |
but like, you know, it could start at, you know,
link |
dumbbell weight, you know, 40 pounds, 30 pounds,
link |
you know, even 25 pounds or something,
link |
depending upon their overall strength levels.
link |
But then when you start to apply it to something like
link |
your body weight with a chin up, right,
link |
because that's natural for the bar to somewhat kind of
link |
float down towards your fingertips.
link |
And it actually is a little bit easier
link |
to perform the exercise with that sort of like false grip,
link |
little hook grip at the end,
link |
because you're not gonna engage the forearms
link |
into the exercise.
link |
You're not gonna start pulling down.
link |
But at the same time,
link |
while it could help you to perform them better
link |
by getting the back more activated,
link |
if you have weakness in these muscles,
link |
because it's not a thing that happens to every,
link |
it's not one of those upright row type things
link |
where I think this is happening to everybody.
link |
This is happening to people that have
link |
these inherent weaknesses in these muscles.
link |
You, or having done enough of the gripping in the fore,
link |
in the meat of the hand, you know, for long enough,
link |
but it starts to put that stress on these muscles
link |
that are ill-equipped to do this and to handle this.
link |
And it starts to, particularly on that fourth finger,
link |
you know, which is part of the muscle we call the FDS,
link |
the flexor digitorum,
link |
that is just too much for it to handle.
link |
And that comes all the way down
link |
and meets right at the medial elbow,
link |
right on that spot that you can say
link |
feels like someone's knifing you right in the middle,
link |
in that medial elbow.
link |
And medial epicondylitis,
link |
or they call it golfer's elbow,
link |
is something that a lot of us deal with in the gym.
link |
It's one of the most common inflammatory conditions
link |
people get from the gym.
link |
And it all comes from this positioning of the dumbbell
link |
or barbell or hand on a pull-up bar over time.
link |
So the easiest thing to do is just grip deeper
link |
so that what you're doing is you're using more leverage
link |
from the palm to encapsulate the bar
link |
or the dumbbell or whatever.
link |
And you're not putting that pressure really distally
link |
right on that last digit
link |
because that's where that FDS muscle is most strained.
link |
So you're just almost eliminating that from the equation.
link |
And it's one of those exercises
link |
that the load can exceed its capacity pretty quickly
link |
so that like, you know,
link |
maybe it's only capable of handling 30 pounds.
link |
And then when you're doing a chin up
link |
and it goes and it drifts so far that it's,
link |
now let's say you're a 200 pound guy,
link |
you've got, let's say 100 pounds through one arm
link |
and 100 pounds, this is simplified math
link |
that obviously is offset by other muscles,
link |
but 100 pounds through one arm, 100 pounds through the other,
link |
100 pounds off of a muscle that can handle 30,
link |
it's not gonna take many repetitions to strain it.
link |
And you're gonna feel that maybe by the time that sets over
link |
or certainly by the time that workout's over
link |
or the next day you wake up,
link |
you've got that notable stabbing pain.
link |
Whenever someone feels that,
link |
the best thing would be to determine,
link |
okay, what exercises was I doing that were pulling
link |
and where the bar could have drifted deeper
link |
further from the meat of my palm into my fingers
link |
and figure out a way to deepen that grip.
link |
When that happens though, the best thing to do
link |
with most of these inflammatory conditions
link |
is not do any of that stuff for a little while.
link |
Not ever, just for a little while.
link |
There's always things that you can do around it.
link |
I'm not saying ever do I say like, don't go to the gym
link |
or don't find something you can do,
link |
but I'm saying that particular exercise
link |
that you feel the pain on while you're doing it,
link |
never a smart idea to do that exercise when it's inflamed.
link |
If you are doing the exercise and it hurts,
link |
you probably shouldn't do the exercise
link |
because another reason for the variability of exercise
link |
is there's so many other options that you can do
link |
that will train similar muscles or even the same motion
link |
and not cause that stress.
link |
So a cable curl would be much easier to do that on
link |
than let's say a chin up where you don't have the control
link |
over the weight like you do by moving a pin on a stack.
link |
So I think that is a common thing that people find
link |
and the best thing to do is just figure out
link |
how deep are you gripping that bar
link |
and you're going to find that, oh my God,
link |
I didn't realize that because it was just,
link |
even though you might start a set in a good position
link |
and then it drifts away as you go.
link |
Yeah, I think that's what was happening to me
link |
and I'm very conscious of this now.
link |
Again, for me, I haven't had this elbow pain at all,
link |
so very fortunate.
link |
So again, a debt of gratitude to you.
link |
Never, I thought there was some roll in my elbow basically.
link |
And I thought maybe it was tennis elbow.
link |
I don't even play tennis, so there you go.
link |
Other aspects of recovery and variables for recovery.
link |
I think you and I both put out content
link |
about the use of cold and I think we can summarize it
link |
by saying, yeah, it does seem like cold water immersion
link |
immediately after hypertrophy or strength workouts
link |
might be a problem, but a cold shower
link |
is probably not a problem.
link |
Do you personally use heat and cold saunas,
link |
hot baths, hot compresses?
link |
And by you, I mean you personally and athletes
link |
that you coach or people that you coach,
link |
what are your thoughts on the use of heat and or cold?
link |
Well, I think it might just be an inherited practice
link |
from the days of trainers since Babe Ruth.
link |
But in baseball, we used a lot of cold
link |
following performance just because the idea would be
link |
there is some, especially pitchers,
link |
there is some inflammation that is abnormal.
link |
The arm is not really designed to do what they do,
link |
especially at the speed that they move it
link |
and everything else.
link |
So we would use ice as a pretty standard practice
link |
after that, but not a lot of heat.
link |
And I don't really use a lot of heat.
link |
And of course, from the recovery or the healing aspect,
link |
that actually becomes rather personal preference
link |
they've found now after let's say the first 12 to 24 hours,
link |
where you're really trying to control inflammation
link |
of what you know might be an injury.
link |
But then it can kind of shift the personal preference
link |
because the heat can bring blood to the area also.
link |
And then the cold has its sort of anti-inflammatory effects.
link |
So there's a balance between
link |
which one's working better for you.
link |
So there's really no standard anymore
link |
for heat or cold in that way.
link |
But from a standpoint of like post-workout healthy status,
link |
I haven't used much heat or cold in terms of what we do.
link |
We cover the topic of the cold showers
link |
and to try to dispel the myth of the,
link |
even people saying that there's giant testosterone releases
link |
and all kinds of stuff that,
link |
listen, we hear all kinds of things
link |
because people want like,
link |
I think the idea of just turning the water cold
link |
and being in it for 30 seconds
link |
and then all of a sudden magically growing
link |
three times your size is intriguing for a lot of people.
link |
And that's why they ask these questions
link |
because they're like, that'd be a hell of a lot easier
link |
than going to the gym and training hard.
link |
But I'm always fascinated by some of the stuff
link |
that you talked about.
link |
In fact, we started to talk about some of this stuff
link |
in terms of cooling and what it can do on performance.
link |
And that was like, there's some untapped territory there
link |
that I think you're finding out about.
link |
Yeah, what would be fun would be
link |
to bring the cool MIT technology from Stanford.
link |
This is Craig Heller, my colleague Craig Heller's lab
link |
at Stanford has done really important
link |
and amazing work in this area,
link |
but then it moved on to some other things.
link |
He's also working on Down syndrome
link |
and he works on a number of other really important topics
link |
as scientists often do.
link |
But I have access to this cool MIT technology,
link |
no relationship to the company, by the way.
link |
We'd love to come out to your facility
link |
and we can do the blind type studies.
link |
Like the blue blocker test.
link |
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
link |
And see how that goes with somebody
link |
as advanced trained as you.
link |
That's probably the best thing to do.
link |
So content for the future.
link |
Yeah, I think heat and cold are kind of staples
link |
And it does seem like people use them slightly differently,
link |
but they are kind of the macronutrients
link |
of recovery there along with sleep.
link |
I do have a question about precision of record keeping.
link |
Do you keep a training journal?
link |
Do you recommend people keep training journals?
link |
Are you neurotically fixed to, you know,
link |
cadence of movement and are you looking at the,
link |
do you have a buzzer going off for night
link |
when it's 90 seconds rest?
link |
Is it 90 seconds rest?
link |
I confess I have my slow workouts and my faster workouts.
link |
And they scale with whether or not I'm training heavier
link |
with longer rest or whether or not
link |
maybe midway through a workout,
link |
I'll shift over to doing higher repetition, lower rest.
link |
This is kind of my crude way of keeping time,
link |
but I'm not, you know, will be just to kind of watch
link |
the clock, but I'm not neurotically fixed to the buzzer.
link |
Nor am I on social media during my workouts,
link |
which is actually a way to really improve workouts
link |
is to just not be on social media.
link |
Yeah, I can't claim that I'm not guilty of that.
link |
Sometimes I am on social media,
link |
but sometimes I'm trying to post something.
link |
Well, that's different.
link |
It's your profession, it's your profession.
link |
But I mean, I'm not necessarily chained
link |
to some sort of protocol in terms of how I do.
link |
I think by this point, I've been doing this a long time.
link |
And not only is it something that I've done for a long time,
link |
but it's a passion of mine, something I really enjoy.
link |
So I probably inherently have the ability
link |
to stick to these guidelines in terms of rest time
link |
to know what I lifted, you know, even six months ago
link |
on a lift and how it felt without journaling it.
link |
But I recognize the value it has to a lot of people.
link |
It goes back to that whole, my muscle connection idea
link |
that we talked about in the beginning.
link |
Like there's a lack of awareness
link |
for all aspects of training,
link |
especially maybe isn't like your interest level.
link |
And we're talking you and I from a position of interest.
link |
Like this is what we do.
link |
We enjoy just how our bodies work
link |
and understanding how they work.
link |
Some people don't care.
link |
They just want the end result.
link |
But journaling and keeping track of that
link |
raises awareness to where like,
link |
oh my God, I have been on Instagram
link |
for the last seven minutes.
link |
And I was supposed to be back at my next set in 90 seconds.
link |
Like there is a training effect of that.
link |
You know, if you're training for a metabolic overload,
link |
you've blown that opportunity because you haven't,
link |
you know, your rest time was very important
link |
to that protocol working as it should.
link |
If you were training for strength,
link |
maybe the extra few minutes doesn't matter so much.
link |
When you get back on the bar, you might find,
link |
I mean, you might find that it's a better response
link |
for your body to rest even longer
link |
than you've been told three, four minutes, five minutes.
link |
And so that way maybe it helps.
link |
But I think that anything you can do
link |
to increase your awareness of your performance
link |
and also give yourself some objective goal
link |
whenever we have an objective goal,
link |
it's a lot easier to actually obtain it.
link |
When you're just there to get a pump
link |
and you're just there to lift how you feel that day,
link |
you have to be incredibly disciplined
link |
in all other aspects of your workout
link |
in order to make that effective.
link |
You know, and I've done that too.
link |
I've actually been able to do that too.
link |
But again, the level of repetitions I've accumulated
link |
over the course of my life
link |
and the amount that I, you know, read about this stuff.
link |
And I think I'm able to get away with that.
link |
But I think more often than not,
link |
what I'm doing is not journaling,
link |
but journaling in my head
link |
exactly what I think people should be doing.
link |
And that is getting a specific effect
link |
from what you're trying to do.
link |
It's not so haphazard.
link |
You know, you want to get a specific effect,
link |
just like any other experiment that you're doing.
link |
You're doing an experiment on your own body
link |
with your own weights,
link |
which to me is one of the most empowering things
link |
someone can ever do.
link |
When they get bitten by the bug
link |
for exercising and training,
link |
and I like to use the word training
link |
rather than exercise because there's a purpose behind it.
link |
But when they get bitten by that training bug
link |
and they start to see actual changes and results,
link |
you know how empowering that is?
link |
Because we can't really control
link |
that many things in our life, unfortunately.
link |
And there's some things that happen to us
link |
that we really wish never happened.
link |
And those are not something that we can do anything about.
link |
But this is one thing that we can do our best to.
link |
We can't avoid disease entirely.
link |
We can't predict when we're going to die.
link |
We can't, you know, do those things,
link |
but we can certainly decide to show up into the gym that day
link |
and get a workout in or go for a run or do something.
link |
And by doing that, you're giving yourself,
link |
I think, a better chance at a higher quality of life.
link |
So anything you can do to increase your awareness of it
link |
and keep you on track with that is,
link |
like I'm endorsing, fully.
link |
Couldn't agree more.
link |
I could not agree more.
link |
There is a topic, it's sort of a dreaded topic,
link |
but I think it's an important one,
link |
and that's the topic of nutrition.
link |
And rather than get into specific meal programs,
link |
which would, you know, take hours
link |
and probably wouldn't even manage to scratch the surface,
link |
we could talk about principles around nutrition.
link |
What are sort of the themes
link |
that you think people should keep in mind
link |
when thinking about how to eat generally?
link |
And pre-training and post-training
link |
are two particularly sensitive times for most,
link |
or times that people want to know a lot about.
link |
You know, what should they eat before training?
link |
Or can they train fast?
link |
What should they eat afterwards?
link |
But just in general,
link |
what do you think are some axioms of nutrition
link |
And I ask this because,
link |
not because there's a lot of debate about this,
link |
but because you've been around this space a long time
link |
and you've seen what works for you, obviously,
link |
but for other people too.
link |
You know, what tends to work, what tends not to work?
link |
And how should we think about nutrition?
link |
I mean, look, you've touched on it a bit, but like,
link |
nutrition can be a touchy subject for people.
link |
And I understand where that comes from.
link |
I've talked about before the,
link |
there's a dogmatic tendency to nutrition.
link |
And there's a reason for it because
link |
it's an area that people struggle with
link |
more than anything else.
link |
And the reason why people struggle with nutrition
link |
is because the commitment is extremely high.
link |
You know, you could start a workout program
link |
and actually get to the gym three to five times a week.
link |
based on how you and I were discussing it before.
link |
Well, what about the other 23 hours of each of those days?
link |
There's opportunity to eat incorrectly or unhealthily.
link |
Every one of those hours,
link |
people wake up in the middle of the night to go eat.
link |
You know, like there are things that you can do
link |
that can cause amazing amounts of damage to your longevity.
link |
In the 23 hours, not the one hour, the 23 hours.
link |
So when people finally figure out a way
link |
to make that work for them, it's very passionate.
link |
And I understand their passion.
link |
I do, like I've put out.
link |
So my approach, my approach is like,
link |
I've always been sort of a low sugar, lower fat guy.
link |
I made the mistake of going no fat years ago
link |
and I paid for it.
link |
I was like in college and you know,
link |
back in the day we were the same age.
link |
You know, we read all the magazines
link |
and that was what we had, we didn't have internet then.
link |
So we were reading magazines and the recommended path
link |
was to go low fat.
link |
It helps you to become hypocaloric very easily
link |
because the density of the calories, you know,
link |
in a gram of fat versus a gram of carbohydrates or protein
link |
is nine versus four for the carbs and protein.
link |
So if you're cutting out grams of fat on a daily basis,
link |
you're quickly cutting out calories
link |
that allows you to get leaner.
link |
Well, of course as everything, I mean,
link |
if a little is good, then a lot is better.
link |
So I would cut all of them out or almost all of them.
link |
And at the age of 22, 21,
link |
I'm like standing at a stop up at University of Connecticut
link |
waiting for the tram to come and bring me to campus.
link |
And I couldn't even open my eyes
link |
because the light was blinding to me.
link |
It was normal sunlight, it was blinding to me.
link |
The photosensitivity I had, you know, learning later on
link |
after a few more courses that I took there in biology,
link |
you know, how, you know, necessary fat was
link |
for the development of healthy, you know, cells.
link |
I realized what was going on.
link |
Then not to make other stuff, skin was bad,
link |
hair was falling out, all kinds of stuff.
link |
So I think that the approach to decreasing fat,
link |
so it's not excessive, you know, because again,
link |
how calorically dense it could be in having lower sugar.
link |
I don't, I'm a firm believer in sugar
link |
is really pretty toxic and something that we would all
link |
do better getting rid of a lot of it.
link |
That is the best approach for, I believe, again,
link |
in my opinion, personally, for the overall big picture,
link |
because though the people can take exclusionary approaches
link |
to nutrition and taking carbs out or, you know,
link |
eating only fats and proteins, or again,
link |
I'm not saying it doesn't work for you.
link |
And if it's the first thing that actually allowed you
link |
to gain control of your nutrition to the point
link |
where you actually saw results and got to a healthier weight
link |
then I always say, then do it, then do it,
link |
but just make sure it's something you can do forever
link |
and doesn't bring upon other repercussions.
link |
But I think that non-exclusionary approaches to diets
link |
are the most sustainable for the rest of your life.
link |
And when I, and all I'm interested in
link |
from a nutrition standpoint is something that's sustainable.
link |
So when I preach what I preach,
link |
I've been doing this since I was 15, 14, you know,
link |
people say like, how's he get so ripped?
link |
How's he get, I have been doing this for four,
link |
since for how many years, 30, 30 years?
link |
30 and clean, low sugar.
link |
Yeah, 30 years, you know, and in the beginning,
link |
it was a slow shift I had to make where I was like,
link |
I went from the worst diet in the whole world.
link |
I was, even when I was 14 years old,
link |
my breakfast was, I talked about this so many times,
link |
but like enemins, I would eat enemins, you know, donuts.
link |
And those long road.
link |
Yeah, they even took the whole out of the donut.
link |
Why would you, why would you delete the middle of the donut?
link |
You know, the crumb donut there, you know,
link |
I would eat donut donuts.
link |
I can taste it in my, I don't like sugar very much,
link |
but over the years I've lost my appetite for sugar.
link |
But as you talk about the enemins donuts,
link |
I can literally smell and taste the frosting.
link |
And to me now it's disgusting,
link |
but back then it might've been appetizing.
link |
You would probably have like really good information
link |
on this, but like my ability to actually remember,
link |
and they've said smell is very evoking of memories, right?
link |
So there's a, smell is unlike the other senses
link |
because there's a direct line,
link |
literally from our sense of smell
link |
to the memory centers of the brain.
link |
It doesn't have to go through any intermediate stations.
link |
Okay, so, you know, my ability to actually recall
link |
exact taste of all the stuff that I used to love
link |
is enough to satisfy me to not engage in those things now.
link |
As crazy as that is, I like,
link |
I almost get my fill through remembering
link |
because of these strong senses of memory
link |
of what it was like is, oh, that used to taste so good.
link |
Okay, that's good, I had it.
link |
Fantastic, well, that's,
link |
we know the neuromodulator there, that's dopamine.
link |
Your ability to get the dopamine release
link |
from the thought of something.
link |
Most people, when they get that dopamine release,
link |
it causes a triggering of the desire for more, right?
link |
People think of dopamine as pleasure.
link |
Dopamine, there's a book, great book
link |
called The Molecule of More.
link |
I didn't write the book unfortunately, but someone else did.
link |
And it's a great book and it's really about how dopamine,
link |
we think it's about pleasure, but it establishes craving.
link |
So you're able to satisfy that.
link |
And it's a very adaptive thing for you
link |
because you are indeed very lean
link |
and that's one of your kind of hallmark things.
link |
And as a professional who does this in the public space,
link |
that's important when people are out there
link |
talking about getting lean and you look at them
link |
and you're like, maybe you need to do the protocols.
link |
It's a huge advantage, but yeah,
link |
I think that it sounds like you've cultivated practices
link |
around avoiding certain things.
link |
Yes, yeah, I mean, but not avoiding certain things
link |
that I think are easily avoided if you realize that there,
link |
I mean, I think that we have enough science
link |
and literature out there to prove
link |
that the altered path is a better path.
link |
You know what I mean?
link |
Like, I feel like if I was just doing it
link |
because I wanted to be lean,
link |
I'm not quite sure it would have held for so long.
link |
And we have a guest whose episode has been recorded
link |
for this podcast who runs an eating disorder clinic
link |
at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School,
link |
studies binge eating disorders, anorexia, OCD,
link |
and he will go on record, and obesity,
link |
and he will go on record saying
link |
that these very highly palatable processed high sugar foods
link |
of the sort that we're talking about,
link |
donuts and so forth, that they are actually dangerous, right?
link |
That there are elements of the way
link |
that they engage neural circuitry, he's a neurosurgeon,
link |
that reshape the brain in dangerous ways.
link |
And those are his words and-
link |
Yeah, tank enemins, for sure.
link |
Yeah, and it's not just enemins.
link |
I mean, I think not just enemins, right?
link |
Yeah, they're coming after us with what?
link |
Yeah, they can't catch us.
link |
In any case, so in terms of what you do eat,
link |
how do you structure that in terms of
link |
when you look down at a plate,
link |
you've done these, described this before,
link |
but I think it's just a beautifully simple description
link |
because I think a lot of people
link |
don't want to do calorie counting and all this.
link |
And how should people think about what to eat?
link |
So, yeah, I have what I call a plate method
link |
and it's just simple because it works for me.
link |
And again, if you're struggling with real eating issues,
link |
these mechanisms become admittedly less effective
link |
because you're having,
link |
maybe you have emotionally triggered eating
link |
and you can't stop at one plate.
link |
I mean, you can get the plate right,
link |
but if the portions are out of control-
link |
The plate has a dimensionality of height.
link |
Or multiple plates, like second and third.
link |
Right, or plate, right.
link |
Then all these things can be challenged.
link |
But what I say is, when you have your plate,
link |
then you just simply look at it as like a clock, right?
link |
And if you just make a nine 20 on the clock,
link |
so one arm goes over to the nine
link |
and one of the arms goes over to 20,
link |
well then you're basically,
link |
you're gonna take the second largest portion of that
link |
because you're gonna make a line towards 12 o'clock too.
link |
And the largest portion is gonna be
link |
your fiber's carbohydrates.
link |
So that's the green vegetables, right?
link |
So whether it be broccoli or Brussels sprouts or asparagus,
link |
or pick your favorites.
link |
Those are the ones that give us
link |
a lot of the micronutrients we need.
link |
They're the ones that are generally
link |
accepted as more healthy.
link |
And they're also gonna provide the fiber
link |
that's gonna be both beneficial
link |
in terms of its impact on insulin
link |
and also just through filling you up, right?
link |
And then I take the next largest portion of that
link |
and I devote that towards protein.
link |
And I think it's really important,
link |
especially for anybody active.
link |
The more active you are,
link |
the more you embark on trying to build muscle,
link |
you're gonna need to have protein every meal.
link |
And again, we're talking cleaner sources of protein,
link |
but you'll never find like boiled chicken on my plate.
link |
Like I ditched those days when I was 16 or 15 or 16.
link |
Like I realized after reading those bodybuilding magazines
link |
that maybe the low fat thing stuck for too long,
link |
but the, or the no fat thing stuck for too long,
link |
but the boiled chicken and a steamed broccoli thing,
link |
that ended quickly for me.
link |
Cause I really, I'm not gonna eat this forever.
link |
So I'll have some sort of fish or chicken,
link |
but it will be cooked in a way that's like,
link |
it's got maybe some sauce on it or it's got some,
link |
maybe it's tomato sauce, anything to just make it
link |
a little bit more palatable and interesting
link |
without blowing the value of the meal.
link |
And then that last portion is where I put
link |
my starchy carbohydrates.
link |
And again, that's the part that some people will say,
link |
exclude them entirely cause they're not healthy
link |
or they don't work for you,
link |
or they're not beneficial long-term.
link |
For me, it's been a godsend.
link |
And I do think I'm like most people,
link |
my body craves those carbohydrates.
link |
I choose things like sweet potatoes, which is my favorite,
link |
or I'll have rice or I'll have pasta, I'm Italian.
link |
So I like pasta and like, I will have those things.
link |
I'm not excluding them,
link |
but I don't put them in the portions
link |
that you would generally find.
link |
You know, my wife and I will go out
link |
and we'll go to the restaurant sometimes,
link |
like because we travel quite a bit,
link |
or used to at least with baseball too.
link |
There's a cheesecake factory everywhere you went.
link |
And I love cheesecake factory,
link |
but like the way they structure meals is,
link |
it's all rice on the bottom
link |
and a little bit of chicken on top.
link |
And I mean, it's a plate full of rice
link |
that you wouldn't find me make a plate that way.
link |
I'm going to just devote that portion of the plate
link |
to the starchy carbohydrate.
link |
And so it gives me a little bit more responsibility
link |
in terms of portion control,
link |
because those are the foods, again,
link |
probably dopamine driven that are most easily overeaten.
link |
I always ask the question,
link |
how was the last time you ate 10 chicken breasts at a meal?
link |
Like you're getting sick of it after maybe two or three,
link |
but you could eat a whole hell of a lot of carbohydrates,
link |
starchy carbohydrates,
link |
because they're just so satisfying.
link |
And I think those triggers, as you said,
link |
the want more, like that's what happens, right?
link |
You just keep, even when you're feeling full, you want more.
link |
And that's the biggest danger to carbohydrates.
link |
So if you can develop some sort of discipline around them,
link |
then you can still enjoy them.
link |
If you can't develop that discipline for whatever reason,
link |
then maybe they do become something
link |
that you have to work yourself around
link |
or adopt a different eating style.
link |
And as I said, I'm never to the point
link |
where I'm not trying to be dogmatic in my approach.
link |
I'm always trying to say, this is how I do it
link |
and I'm a believer in it,
link |
just like everyone else is a believer in their method.
link |
But I'm open to the idea that something that works for you
link |
and gets you to a healthier weight and a sustainability,
link |
like that is good.
link |
That's good for me.
link |
Provided it doesn't introduce other issues.
link |
Yeah, something one can do consistently.
link |
That's something I picked up from you over the years.
link |
What can you do consistently?
link |
And for me, that also meant when and how can I eat?
link |
What can I eat consistently
link |
that will also allow me to be alert after lunch
link |
so I can actually get some work done or eat?
link |
I like to train fasted in the morning,
link |
but I don't do any long-term fasting.
link |
It just so happens that I'm fine doing water and caffeine
link |
in the morning and training in the morning,
link |
and then I eat my first meal afterwards.
link |
But I get carbohydrates at night,
link |
so my glycogen is restored.
link |
I think carbohydrates are wonderful.
link |
I just don't eat them in excess.
link |
So to me, I feel like when,
link |
what you describe as a very rational,
link |
literally balanced approach,
link |
and obviously there will be variations
link |
for people who are dealing with obesity or diabetes,
link |
or I've got friends that are on the pure carnivore thing.
link |
I have friends that are vegan,
link |
and it's always impressive to me
link |
when somebody can stick to anything consistently,
link |
except when they're sticking to just poor behavior.
link |
There's nothing impressive about that.
link |
Well, I think that that's very helpful
link |
because I think there's,
link |
for the typical listener of this podcast,
link |
the online content that people see,
link |
the battles are very confusing.
link |
They're distracting because people really think,
link |
oh, there's a right way and a wrong way.
link |
And it sounds like the way
link |
that one can eat consistently over time that's healthy.
link |
Certainly fewer processed and sugary foods.
link |
I think almost everybody agrees there.
link |
Yeah, almost everyone agrees on that, right?
link |
So I think it's calorie manipulation
link |
through some other method, right?
link |
So even intermittent fasting, like you said,
link |
that could be, it's for people that are grazers.
link |
If you are a grazer and your real problem
link |
is portion control over the course of the day,
link |
but you can respond to a rule that says,
link |
no, you're eating between here and here,
link |
that you can obey that rule,
link |
well, you're not gonna be able to graze
link |
during the times that you might be doing additional damage.
link |
So sure, there's other hormonal benefits
link |
that people will talk about from that approach,
link |
but from a longevity standpoint
link |
and habit forming standpoint,
link |
if it's fixing the habit that you're breaking too often
link |
by eating throughout whenever you feel like
link |
you walk by food, it's good and it works.
link |
And again, people will tell you,
link |
you can probably eat whatever you wanna eat
link |
as long as you're eating within that window.
link |
But I think the more responsible people
link |
who are practitioners of that will say,
link |
no, you still wanna avoid processed sugar
link |
and things like that.
link |
So, and that's just a mechanism
link |
of eating not really a diet, right?
link |
But I think that people,
link |
I hate to be as basic as it sounds with that,
link |
but it's for the exact reason that
link |
if it's that 23 hour day phenomenon
link |
that it's like you said you're impressed, it is impressive.
link |
It's so hard to control all of our behaviors
link |
and food being one of the hardest thing,
link |
one of the biggest temptations for people.
link |
You gotta learn how to control that for so long
link |
and then do it day after day after day.
link |
Whatever that mechanism is that works for you
link |
is impressive and I'm a believer in it.
link |
I think that's how I feel.
link |
I just feel like people need to be able to be given
link |
some reigns to be able to find what works for them.
link |
Well, I love to eat and one of the beauties
link |
of weight training is I feel like I can eat plenty
link |
for my age and I'm not as lean as you are,
link |
but I'm happy with where I'm at.
link |
I could always do better.
link |
With each year actually I've been getting better
link |
probably because I'm eating cleaner,
link |
probably because I also have someone to cook for me now.
link |
And we like healthy food and so I'm very fortunate.
link |
I don't think we have any packaged food in our home.
link |
We even started making sauerkraut at home.
link |
I don't make it, she makes it.
link |
Well, my wife actually, she turned me on to a tip
link |
that I actually shared with the whole channel,
link |
which was like, you can go to,
link |
we have a Stu Leonard's around our big grocery store chain
link |
around us and they have a catering department
link |
and they're often used for catering big parties
link |
and big tubs of grilled chicken,
link |
but like really good grilled chicken.
link |
Again, not the boiled chicken,
link |
but big tubs of sweet potatoes.
link |
And we'll get a bunch of those and she'll go over
link |
and she'll get them and then she'll sort of arrange them
link |
on plates and put the plates in.
link |
And like, I'm okay with repetitive eating.
link |
I think more people are probably okay
link |
with repetitive eating than they think.
link |
I think that when you actually break down,
link |
how many different breakfast variety,
link |
like variations do you have?
link |
Two or three, maximum.
link |
So like, I think when people do,
link |
there's more variety for dinner probably,
link |
but like even there you probably eat
link |
five different types of dinners
link |
over the course of a week or a month.
link |
Well, if you have that ability to identify the things
link |
that you like, and again, no plan is gonna work
link |
if you're eating stuff you don't like.
link |
It's not gonna work forever, nothing will.
link |
You have to really enjoy what you're eating.
link |
As long as these variations of this meal
link |
are something that you really enjoy
link |
and there are limited versions of them,
link |
the reproducibility of that is simple.
link |
It will take some time, but if you're fortunate enough
link |
in our case to have somebody who can prepare it for you,
link |
now that's even part out of the equation.
link |
And it's like, it just makes it very simple.
link |
But I do think when you tally up all the costs
link |
of medical care that are spiked by having poor nutrition,
link |
and you then offset that by what it might cost you
link |
to invest in a faster strategy like this catering trick
link |
or whatever it might be, you'd be best off figuring out
link |
a way to maybe reallocate some of your money
link |
to preparing this because you know how important it is
link |
to your long-term health and longevity.
link |
If you can figure out your nutrition issues,
link |
if everyone listening to this podcast
link |
can figure out their nutrition issues,
link |
this whole world will be different.
link |
That is like one of the largest sources of disease
link |
and pain and discomfort
link |
because people really struggle with nutrition.
link |
Yeah, and it's a huge problem.
link |
I mean, the obesity, it is an epidemic in this country.
link |
It's very, very serious.
link |
Also, a lot of highly processed foods
link |
are more expensive than healthier foods.
link |
When you really break it down,
link |
even the better sourced high quality foods
link |
are right there on par less than the processed foods,
link |
I have a couple other questions as it relates to training
link |
because I think that one thing
link |
that a lot of people wonder about,
link |
and maybe we could do this in kind of a true-false method
link |
just to get through some of these.
link |
50-50, I'll get it right at least.
link |
Men and women should train differently?
link |
The science of it will say false.
link |
And again, not to generalize,
link |
but kind of the point you touched on earlier today,
link |
I do find that casually interested women in training
link |
will migrate more towards certain types of fitness,
link |
like kickboxing, like dancing,
link |
like low-rest circuit type.
link |
And I think, again,
link |
whatever it is that you're going to engage in regularly
link |
is what you should do.
link |
Physiologically, no.
link |
And I think if we can get more women
link |
to feel more comfortable in the gym,
link |
performing the same exercises
link |
and receiving the same strength training benefits
link |
and working on progressive overload,
link |
and like, yeah, we've hit the holy grail.
link |
But I think that it's a big bridge
link |
that has to be gapped still
link |
because there's just some reality to,
link |
listen, there are very,
link |
my wife is a perfect example of this,
link |
living a very complicated, busy life.
link |
We have two young boys, they're twins,
link |
and her attention and focus is there.
link |
And it's like, she doesn't do this for a living like I do.
link |
And if she can get a decent workout in, she's happy,
link |
but she's not necessarily working on her deadlift PR.
link |
And so I think that that would help her
link |
and serve her in the longterm
link |
to work on increasing her PRs and different lifts
link |
and building her strength progressively.
link |
But in her life right now,
link |
it's not necessarily in the cards
link |
to have the time to focus on that.
link |
So would you then discourage this other thing
link |
that she might find interesting?
link |
Like some boxing, there was a little,
link |
I don't remember the brand,
link |
but like one of those punchable boxing standup things,
link |
and she enjoys it.
link |
And anything to get you moving is going to be preferable,
link |
but I don't think that necessarily physiologically
link |
there's a difference.
link |
You started weight training pretty young.
link |
Yeah, I messed around with my brother
link |
because he was older, he was four years older.
link |
So I was kind of messing around with weights,
link |
probably 12 or 13 with a five pound dumbbell.
link |
Okay, yeah, you hear that young kids
link |
shouldn't work out with the weights.
link |
I don't know what the going standard is now.
link |
They say, shuts down long bone growth
link |
or growth plates, this sort of thing.
link |
You've got two young boys, adorable kids, by the way.
link |
Yeah, one of the things that is very heartwarming
link |
is to see that you're in great shape,
link |
you're extremely bright, you know your craft,
link |
you love your craft, you work with Jesse,
link |
who we'll talk about as well, which is great.
link |
There's a camaraderie there, having great teammates
link |
as part of a business or to work out with
link |
is just makes life better.
link |
Let's just be honest, I'm grateful to have great teammates
link |
for the podcast and my lab, of course, as well.
link |
But to see your boys and your dogs and the whole picture,
link |
I'm sure it has a lot of contours and complexity
link |
that we don't know about and shouldn't know about,
link |
but it's a beautiful picture.
link |
And will they weight train?
link |
I've seen the videos of one or both of them
link |
hanging from the box.
link |
These kids are naturals, I'm telling you that.
link |
I wonder where they get it from.
link |
I don't even encourage it.
link |
I'm not going to be the dad who's sitting there saying,
link |
Yeah, we got our two days here.
link |
I'm not going to do that,
link |
but they have a natural interest in the gym.
link |
They just sometimes like to be out with daddy.
link |
So they'll come out there and I, of the two of us,
link |
my wife and I will be the one who has a little bit more
link |
of a longer leash to let them explore things.
link |
Cause I was a dummy at times too,
link |
and figured out best through the mistakes I made.
link |
In neuroscience, we call that one trial learning.
link |
These guys are going to be masters of one trial learning
link |
because they'll go grab the bars of my,
link |
the handles of my jammer that's there.
link |
Cause it's at a lower level to them
link |
and they're swinging around,
link |
they're doing pull-ups on it naturally.
link |
One coach, nothing from me.
link |
One will walk up to a deadlift bar,
link |
stand over it naturally.
link |
Never saw me do it.
link |
Stands over there and just goes,
link |
ah, he tries to pull it.
link |
So there's a, there's a definitely an inclination
link |
to liking the gym and I will fully support that.
link |
But of course, you know,
link |
body weight will be good for quite a while.
link |
So what age do you think is reasonable for kids
link |
to start exploring a non-body weight training?
link |
I think around 13, you know, I think around 13.
link |
Once puberty, I think it's okay to start to, you know,
link |
cause there's so much I even say for people
link |
that are like later in age who are just starting out,
link |
learn with your own body weight first.
link |
There's plenty of resistance to be had
link |
by learning how to command your body in space.
link |
So if you have never trained before,
link |
you're going to get very stimulated
link |
by doing lunging and reverse lunging,
link |
even learning some of the proprioception
link |
around movement through space.
link |
Pull-ups, chin-ups, pull-ups and chin-ups
link |
are challenging for even people that have had
link |
20, 30 years of experience in the gym.
link |
So there's a lot of stimulus to be had by body weight
link |
and jumping straight to dumbbells or barbells
link |
is actually doing yourself a disservice.
link |
You can learn better command of your body in space
link |
so that when you go back to the bigger lifts,
link |
you're going to have an easier time
link |
sort of progressively loading them
link |
and building up that foundation of strength.
link |
I'm not saying that you have to become
link |
a master calisthenics athlete
link |
before you can touch a barbell.
link |
That's not even true.
link |
I'm just saying there's so much capacity.
link |
Kids are going to be doing this anyway.
link |
And really just, if you look at general play,
link |
they are jumping, they are lunging,
link |
they are climbing, they are pulling.
link |
Like that's what they do.
link |
So why, I don't know where the avoidance
link |
of like structured training is for younger kids.
link |
Again, provided they're using body weight
link |
and maybe less ballistic movements or something like that.
link |
Things that are certainly overloaded movements.
link |
I think we should encourage kids to do more.
link |
There's a lot of obesity in kids on the rise also.
link |
And that is incredibly disconcerting to me.
link |
So I think, and I hope it doesn't come from
link |
the advice of some that say,
link |
well, wait until you're older to start doing something.
link |
Like that's a way worse trade off
link |
than engaging in something smart now.
link |
We used to get kicked out of the house when we were kids.
link |
My mom would kick us out.
link |
I had a huge pack of boys that lived on my street,
link |
but we'd get kicked out side.
link |
Like literally you're not allowed in the, no television.
link |
There were video games of course,
link |
but we were kicked out of the house.
link |
We had to go play.
link |
For us it was skateboarding, soccer,
link |
and then we'd find our trouble.
link |
But so post-training nutrition, we're the same age.
link |
Years ago, I was sort of neurotic about the idea
link |
that I had to ingest a certain amount of carbohydrates
link |
and proteins within two hours.
link |
Then it was 90 minutes of training.
link |
I confess I get, if I train hard,
link |
so I'm talking about the resistance training,
link |
not the running, but the resistance training,
link |
you know, 60 to 90 minutes later, I'm really hungry.
link |
But there've been days when I just skip
link |
and then the hunger passes and then later I eat more.
link |
I might eat twice as much later.
link |
You know, that's just the way sometimes schedules go.
link |
But what are your thoughts in terms of the nutrition science,
link |
the training related effects of the post-training meal?
link |
Is it something that you try to get?
link |
Is it something that you think
link |
people should pay attention to?
link |
So that science has actually probably been the one
link |
that's changed the most in my lifetime, honestly,
link |
because I, again, we're the same age
link |
and I was falling for the same trap,
link |
you know, where I would really be focused on,
link |
like I'm risking speeding tickets,
link |
driving home from the gym to make sure
link |
I got an anabolic window.
link |
You know, like I did all that.
link |
You know, but thankfully that's been sort of debunked
link |
and your body isn't just rushing through, you know,
link |
these certain periods of time to utilize
link |
the nutrients in our body,
link |
but are able to partition them
link |
and use them over a long, much greater duration.
link |
Up to now they're saying, you know, three to four hours
link |
after training, five hours after training,
link |
you can still see the benefits of replenishment.
link |
A lot of that is just, you know,
link |
I think there's a consistency element to it
link |
that just utilizing a post-workout window
link |
or a post-workout meal,
link |
even if it's within two hours or one hour,
link |
is just integrating the habit of saying,
link |
listen, I just did this activity
link |
and now I want to replenish some of what I lost,
link |
the energy that I used to perform,
link |
you know, the exercises that I did.
link |
And just getting into the routine,
link |
knowing that the engine is ultimately fed
link |
by what we put in it.
link |
And the concept of replenishing the fuel lost
link |
is still a concept that I think, again,
link |
different in mechanism, but still important
link |
in terms of fueling the overall performance.
link |
So, you know, the pre-workout period of time
link |
gives us a chance to actually have a longer window
link |
because if those nutrients are obtained pre-workout,
link |
it's not like they're gone in that hour that you've trained.
link |
They're still there and available for your body to use.
link |
So, you know, I think it's important
link |
to get one of the two, you know, right?
link |
Or at least make sure you're consistently
link |
having one or the two,
link |
or you might risk going through all these periods
link |
of having no nutrition to support your efforts.
link |
Not only will your workouts potentially suffer
link |
in terms of the output,
link |
but then you're also not providing your body
link |
any ability to capitalize on an opportunity to feed it
link |
and refuel and recover.
link |
So, I'm not very dogmatic about what specifically
link |
to eat pre or post, you know, workout,
link |
but I do think you should have protein
link |
surrounding your training,
link |
whether that be ahead of time or after.
link |
Protein could be a little bit hard to digest
link |
So, if you do that pre-workout
link |
and then you're finding your workouts slogging
link |
because you don't feel good,
link |
then suddenly you put that after your meal.
link |
But this whole concept of the urgency of time
link |
has thankfully been removed
link |
and we can just learn to eat a little bit more,
link |
you know, responsibly and drive more responsibly
link |
so we're not, you know, trying to rush home from the gym
link |
and risk, you know, killing people on the way.
link |
You know, I think it's,
link |
but I think it's great because I think that
link |
that was something that it just showcases a belief
link |
that people had for so long
link |
that has since been proven to be not that important.
link |
And there's a tip of the cap towards research in a good way
link |
where it's like, all right, I think we could all agree
link |
that this isn't necessarily true anymore.
link |
And look at yourself and say,
link |
oh my God, I did that so often.
link |
Like I bit that one hook, line and sinker.
link |
But then realize, okay, we could always make a change
link |
and the good thing about nutrition is
link |
those changes can happen the very next time you go to eat,
link |
you know, and you'll start to see the benefits of that.
link |
So I'm not a big believer in that strict approach
link |
to pre or post workout.
link |
I mean, even as far as pre-workout supplements,
link |
a lot of people don't take them.
link |
A lot of people don't like them.
link |
They don't take them.
link |
They don't like, they're not necessarily even being used
link |
as the new nutritive side of the pre-workout.
link |
They're just more used to fuel the workout.
link |
For me, it's water and some form of caffeine.
link |
Yeah, I mean, it's whatever, you know, again,
link |
I think it's important.
link |
I do think it's important
link |
to maintain a high level of output.
link |
So if your pre-workout nutrition requires a stimulant
link |
in order to help you do that,
link |
or if your pre-workout nutrition is causing you
link |
to have a harder time to train
link |
because you're feeling full or stomachache
link |
or something else, then that's not achieving
link |
what you're trying to do.
link |
The ultimate goal is to still be able to perform
link |
at the highest level.
link |
So whatever your nutrition is required
link |
to allow you to still do that,
link |
that is probably the most important factor
link |
I love the very clear and rational approach.
link |
Don't ingest anything right before your workout
link |
or near your workout that's going to make your workout worse.
link |
And it's so simple and yet you don't hear this
link |
because I think people will think,
link |
oh, they must have a pre-workout.
link |
They must have a post-workout.
link |
Again, like even if there are the benefits
link |
that are to be had from whatever's being suggested
link |
is going to be easily offset by the fact
link |
that you can't perform at an output
link |
capable of driving any change.
link |
So that would pretty much negate the fact
link |
that you're not outweighing those benefits
link |
of whatever nutritive approach you took
link |
and it's struggling through your workout.
link |
Yeah, for me, the best pre-workout is a good night's sleep,
link |
hydration, caffeine, music.
link |
Yeah, there you go.
link |
I mean, it's pretty simple formula.
link |
And then post-workout, I do find I get quite hungry
link |
and want to eat quite a bit more and-
link |
Well, that's a natural response.
link |
The body's going to, and most people want to do that
link |
and I think it should be fed.
link |
I work out as, again, a lot of my postings on Instagram
link |
will happen at 10 o'clock at night, 10.30 at night,
link |
11 at night, because I am actually training there
link |
and that's where I'm taking those little breaks
link |
in between sets to actually film or post something.
link |
But like, I then go inside, I eat dinner.
link |
So I'm eating at 11 o'clock at night.
link |
It's not necessarily ideal.
link |
I'm not recommending that as a tool for anybody.
link |
I think it dispels one thing.
link |
I've never been a believer in can eat carbs after six.
link |
Yeah, that makes no sense to me.
link |
Based on all the new,
link |
all the science of metabolism that I've seen.
link |
I think as long as you can, sort of like napping.
link |
I talked to Matt Walker, one of the great sleep researchers
link |
wrote Why We Sleep, et cetera,
link |
and has his own podcast about sleep.
link |
Tremendous researcher, public communicator about sleep.
link |
And he said, naps are fine provided they don't interrupt
link |
your ability to sleep well at night.
link |
Some people can sleep from eight to 9 p.m.
link |
and then go to bed at midnight and not a problem.
link |
Other people, they take a 30 minute nap after lunch
link |
and they can't sleep at night.
link |
Same thing with, caffeine's a little different
link |
because Matt would argue the architecture of sleep
link |
can be disrupted, et cetera.
link |
But if you can eat dinner late and eat carbohydrates late,
link |
I actually need carbohydrates at night
link |
in order to be able to sleep.
link |
Whenever I've done a low carbohydrate type regimen
link |
in the evening, I have a hard time falling asleep.
link |
I'm just too alert.
link |
And so I eat carbohydrates in the evening
link |
to restore glycogen, but also in order to make sure
link |
that I can fall asleep.
link |
I actually can, again, obviously it's already late at night
link |
by the time I'm done eating, but like I can fall asleep
link |
within five, 10 minutes of finishing my meal.
link |
Because I do think that they have that same effect on me.
link |
But I'm never, I'm not bothered by the feeling of fullness.
link |
I'm not, I'm not unable to sleep
link |
because of the feeling of fullness.
link |
But I do like the fact that I feel as if I'm at least
link |
replenishing what was lost through my hard training.
link |
And I do like to back it up with a dinner.
link |
I don't need to eat smaller amounts.
link |
Some people can't have that much.
link |
I will say after a hard leg workout,
link |
I don't have the same appetite that I do
link |
after let's say, an upper body workout.
link |
It can really disrupt my whole feeling of wellbeing.
link |
You want to eat less after you train your legs?
link |
Oh, wow, I'm the opposite.
link |
No, because I just feel like I could feel sick
link |
to my stomach, you know?
link |
You're clearly training harder.
link |
I've seen the way you train.
link |
You do train very intensely.
link |
Yeah, I think it's important.
link |
I mean, I think that, again, it's that trade off
link |
between if you're not going to train
link |
for a long period of time,
link |
then you're going to want to train harder.
link |
And again, I actually feel like contrary
link |
to what people might think as you age,
link |
you're better off training harder
link |
for a shorter period of time.
link |
You know, it's always within the realm of safe training.
link |
I mean, I think that's what I like to think.
link |
That's what I bring to the table.
link |
Like an approach that's smarter so I can train harder.
link |
You know, like not doing the dumb things I did
link |
And with that trade off, being a harder trainer,
link |
I think I get the results that I want
link |
because I'm able to really push it
link |
and then back off.
link |
And again, the meal feels like almost a physiological reward
link |
for the hard effort I put in the gym,
link |
knowing that I'm also replenishing
link |
and setting the stage for the next day
link |
to be another successful day of training.
link |
Or maybe not, depending on how many times a week I train.
link |
But yeah, I think that it's a lot less,
link |
I hate to say it, but it's a lot less scientific
link |
than we want to make it.
link |
And as it seems to be coming back oftentimes,
link |
like the thing that works for you
link |
is really the most important thing
link |
because ultimately getting your ass in there
link |
and doing what you do is really the thing
link |
that provides the best benefit.
link |
Absolutely, and you know, there are many things
link |
that I would say are hallmarks of Jeff Cavaliere,
link |
but one of them is certainly consistency.
link |
You make it happen one way or another.
link |
Huge, I mean, consistency really is the determinant.
link |
And I know that that is the hardest part for people
link |
and why people tend to look for the shortcut
link |
because consistency is the part
link |
that becomes the biggest challenge.
link |
But if you could find, listen, if you could find the,
link |
I mean, through what I've been trying to encourage here
link |
is like, if you could find the nutrition approach,
link |
if you could find the training approach,
link |
if you could try to find the training split,
link |
if you could try, all those things that encourage you
link |
to want to go to the gym,
link |
like you're locked in at the point
link |
where you said you actually look forward
link |
to going and doing your workout.
link |
I look forward to, I mean, it's, you know,
link |
actually this morning, one of our teammates for the podcast,
link |
I got a workout and halfway through,
link |
I just turned to him and I said,
link |
I'll never figure out why that feels so good,
link |
but it feels so good.
link |
I just, I really enjoy it.
link |
And it lets, and I love to eat and it lets me eat.
link |
And I love the way it makes me feel afterward.
link |
I don't understand this concept of not enjoying the gym.
link |
Cardio is a little different.
link |
I always loathe the first 10 or 20 minutes of a jog.
link |
I mildly loathe the middle third.
link |
And by the end, I think this is the greatest thing ever.
link |
Why don't I do it all at a time?
link |
And then that feeling evaporates
link |
before the next time I do it.
link |
Yeah, of course you don't even remember it either.
link |
Yeah, I think if people could,
link |
if we had one gift we could give to everybody,
link |
it would be the love of fitness, right?
link |
If they could be bestowed the love of fitness,
link |
it would change the entire world, you know?
link |
But I think when you hear things like this,
link |
that like, hey, that will work and that will work too.
link |
And that this will work too, you know,
link |
rather than the dogmatic one way only approach,
link |
which could become discouraging for people.
link |
Then I think it becomes a little bit uplifting.
link |
Like, well, I've never tried that.
link |
I've actually never tried a total body split
link |
or I've never tried, you know, that style of eating.
link |
Like it becomes encouraging that you might want to explore
link |
and then you might finally get locked in and say,
link |
I really liked this.
link |
And then you're off and running.
link |
Let's move what I so enjoy about your content.
link |
We would be remiss if we didn't briefly discuss Jesse.
link |
One of the great pleasures for me in watching your content
link |
and learning from it over the years is that you took on,
link |
you decided to mentor somebody, Jesse.
link |
And there's some poking fun back and forth
link |
between the two of you, which is very amusing.
link |
But I have to say, it inspired me to do something early on
link |
in developing this podcast as I have a young intern
link |
who has helped me with some of the research
link |
and he's interested in science.
link |
He's about to go off to college,
link |
but he also got really into fitness.
link |
We would watch the videos of you guys.
link |
He was helping me get the Instagram content out early on.
link |
And one thing that was just, it's such a pleasure
link |
to be able to pass along knowledge.
link |
And of course I'm learning from him.
link |
This is always the way it works.
link |
We learn from teaching and we learn from students.
link |
But it's been great to see Jesse's progress.
link |
I've gotten to meet him in person just now.
link |
And he has grown, he's changed physically.
link |
And I think that you mentioned a love of fitness.
link |
I think that one of the best ways to be consistent
link |
is to take on the responsibility of teaching others
link |
once one has proficiency in something.
link |
So maybe you just tell us a little bit
link |
about how that's going, how is Jesse doing
link |
and where does he need a little more work?
link |
Where is he thriving?
link |
I'm impressed by the progress.
link |
Well, we have, I mean, physically,
link |
we can obviously see the changes,
link |
the list of things to work on is immense.
link |
It's so long for him to continue to improve.
link |
But no, actually, in reality, Jesse,
link |
the story of Jesse was that I knew Jesse
link |
prior to starting even Athlean-X.
link |
And as a matter of fact, I think the funny thing
link |
is the very first video that was ever posted on my channel
link |
was a video that he shot as, I don't know,
link |
a 13-year-old or something.
link |
And I said, can you just film this for a second?
link |
I was over there training members of the family.
link |
So he then went off to college, went into film,
link |
realized he had much greener pastures at Athlean-X
link |
instead of becoming the next Scorsese or something.
link |
And he decided to come work with me.
link |
And the expectations in the beginning
link |
were just to edit videos or just to help
link |
with various aspects of my day-to-day
link |
that I don't think I was equipped to really handle
link |
and grow the business anymore.
link |
So then look at, by virtue of being in that environment,
link |
there's an interest.
link |
I think if I worked in a gym,
link |
I might become interested in working out.
link |
And though mine is not a commercial gym,
link |
it's sitting right behind my office window,
link |
there became an interest in wanting to work out a little bit
link |
and it wasn't even an intentional experiment
link |
to put Jesse there.
link |
I just thought that he's a very likable person.
link |
He has a very funny personality.
link |
He's also the everyman.
link |
In some ways, as I'm sure maybe you experience sometimes,
link |
I'm the guy that this comes naturally for me
link |
is what people will say.
link |
This is what you do for a living.
link |
There's an element of disconnect
link |
in terms of the relatability
link |
because I do do this for a living.
link |
I can't deny that.
link |
I do work with professional athletes
link |
so there's a level of interest in this above and beyond.
link |
But for him, he's just the kid who wants to train
link |
maybe if he rolls out of bed before 11 a.m.
link |
and doesn't have a date on Friday night.
link |
But that's the guy everybody can relate to.
link |
And watching him transform,
link |
and I love the fact that even the interest level
link |
It wasn't consistent for him
link |
because he was part interested
link |
and then maybe not interested for three months
link |
and then interested in that.
link |
And I never pushed it on him.
link |
Again, this was no orchestrated experiment for me.
link |
It was just like, if you want to do this, then do this.
link |
And also from a standpoint of like,
link |
lending my help or expertise to him,
link |
like I said with my son,
link |
I'm not going to force it on anybody.
link |
I don't want to do that to anybody.
link |
I don't think that that's ever going to spark that desire
link |
for long-term adoption.
link |
So he got more interested.
link |
He started to learn more about it.
link |
He watches the videos that we're filming.
link |
He films the videos that we're filming
link |
and he's learning through what I'm saying.
link |
He's becoming more of a student of the field.
link |
And I have to say his knowledge in the field
link |
has grown with the growth of his physique.
link |
And he's put into practice some of the things that I say,
link |
he's put in practice some things he hears other places
link |
and he winds up improving as he goes.
link |
And he winds up starting to love this
link |
like he never thought he would.
link |
But it's great to see anybody grow.
link |
And whether that be physically or that be emotionally
link |
or whether it be just in their career,
link |
it's great to see somebody grow.
link |
And I like to tease him, funny admission here.
link |
There are times when the jabs that I will throw at him
link |
are something that we might know ahead of time
link |
of what I'm going to say to him.
link |
People will say, you're so mean to him.
link |
I can't believe it.
link |
You're, that's so abusive.
link |
You know, like, dude, honestly, we laugh after it's over.
link |
It's good, we're good, you know?
link |
So, you know, of course, but like-
link |
He's tougher than he looks is what you're saying.
link |
He's tougher than he looks.
link |
Believe me, believe me.
link |
And he looks pretty tough now.
link |
He's got the big beard.
link |
He looks more manly than I do.
link |
I can't grow a beard.
link |
I mean, believe me, he's totally alpha
link |
and I'm like, you know, quickly becoming, you know,
link |
the second star of this show.
link |
But like, you know, he's definitely contributed
link |
and people enjoy his presence for sure.
link |
Yeah, I certainly do.
link |
And I think that as you pointed out,
link |
he's a kind of a proxy and a template for everybody.
link |
We can relate to him because even though I've trained
link |
for many years, you know, it's been a struggle, you know,
link |
through graduate school postdoc, you know,
link |
it made it happen one way or another,
link |
but with more or less attention and admittedly through,
link |
you know, waxing, waning levels of motivation.
link |
Although, you know, I'm fortunate that I do enjoy it.
link |
What I think is nice about it too,
link |
is that it's a realistic expectation that we set, I think.
link |
You know, in other words, you're showcasing
link |
what the journey actually looks like.
link |
And he's been on the journey for, again, you know,
link |
devotedly for let's say the last year and a half,
link |
but on the journey for five years.
link |
If I could make the gains that he did,
link |
starting when I started training at, you know, 14, 15,
link |
and you're saying, hey, by 20,
link |
you're going to have the strength levels he does,
link |
the physique that he does, the knowledge that you've gained.
link |
Like that seems like a blink of an eye now looking back,
link |
you know, at 46 years old, I'm like, holy cow.
link |
Like, I think it took me 20 years, you know, 15, 20 years.
link |
So, you know, to just even start to get into a groove.
link |
For him to do it in a period of five years,
link |
it doesn't seem long.
link |
Whereas there's people that will criticize his journey.
link |
Like, oh, it's just taking so long.
link |
It's so like, there's such an instant gratification,
link |
you know, that people seek.
link |
Luckily, that's the minority.
link |
Most people are like, this is amazing, you know?
link |
But I think that it becomes very uplifting
link |
because not only is it relatable, but the journey is real.
link |
And people can appreciate that.
link |
Like this is what will happen
link |
if you actually put in consistent hard work
link |
and you'll watch him transform
link |
and go back and watch the videos.
link |
Like you look at, we like to oftentimes throw back
link |
to videos where he appeared as, you know,
link |
smaller Jesse, but also shy Jesse.
link |
Arms crossed, head down,
link |
not making eye contact with the camera, you know,
link |
to where now he's got his own skits and intros.
link |
You know, it's like, it's funny because of the confidence
link |
with the growth of physique came confidence too,
link |
Absolutely, it's pretty soon it'll be his world
link |
and we'll all be living in it as they say.
link |
Well, on behalf of myself and all the listeners,
link |
I really want to thank you.
link |
First of all, for the discussion today,
link |
I learned an immense amount.
link |
Even though I thought I knew your content well,
link |
I still learned an immense amount,
link |
many things we could deploy from when to stretch,
link |
how to stretch, the skipping rope.
link |
We talked about nutrition,
link |
we talked about heat, cold, training regimens.
link |
And what I love about all of this,
link |
now that you've given us,
link |
is that there's a backbone of logic, you know,
link |
and some consistent themes indeed about consistency.
link |
But the logical backbone, I think,
link |
is what will enable people to really show up to the table
link |
and stay there for training consistently over time.
link |
As you said, the gift of fitness is an immense gift.
link |
I can't thank you enough.
link |
I know you're an incredibly busy human being
link |
with kids and dogs and a marriage and a thriving business.
link |
I'm happy I was able to make it work
link |
because I really, I've been watching your stuff for a while
link |
and I really, I love the science of it.
link |
I like the way you think.
link |
And it's just, you know,
link |
I'm just really fortunate that I was able to do it.
link |
Well, I feel very gratified in hearing that
link |
and honored to have you here.
link |
So thank you so much.
link |
Thank you for joining me
link |
for my discussion with Jeff Cavaliere.
link |
I hope you found it as interesting
link |
and as actionable as I did.
link |
If you're learning from and are enjoying this podcast,
link |
please subscribe to our YouTube channel.
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That's the best zero cost way to support us.
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In addition, please subscribe to the podcast
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That's also a terrific way to support us.
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And on both Spotify and Apple,
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If you have comments and feedback,
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There, if you have suggestions about specific episodes
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or you have specific questions,
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In addition, please check out the sponsors
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That's the best way to support this podcast.
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And for those of you that are interested in supplements
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of the Huberman Lab Podcast,
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again, we partnered with Momentous Supplements.
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You can find the supplements related to this podcast
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at livemomentous.com slash Huberman.
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If you're not already following us on social media,
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We are Huberman Lab on both Twitter and Instagram.
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There, I cover science and science-based tools,
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some of which overlap with the content
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and other of which is distinct from the information covered
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So again, it's Huberman Lab on Instagram
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If you're not already subscribed
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You can do that by going to HubermanLab.com,
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They come out about once a month
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Again, that's the neural network newsletter
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And last, but certainly not least,
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thank you for your interest in science.
link |
I'll see you in the next one.